Breeders that breed with no thought - Page 3

I have said plenty of times that schutzhund is far from the be all and end all of what makes a good dog. And no, not every schutzhund dog is a protection dog.  I know there are tons of very knowledgeable people out there who do not do sport but still know a good dog when they see one. Some of them are people I trust, very much. The question is...how does the average newbie or puppy buyer tell the difference between those, and people who just claim to know, or think they know, what a good dog is? For me, I'd rather have proof that I stick to some kind of standard instead of expecting others to just take my word for it. 

KCzaja, I suppose we're all in the same boat as for as what we claim to know or think we know, if your a newbie or an inexperienced puppy buyer I guess you have to settle on trusting someone any one can be dishonest, accomplishments have nothing to do with ethics and honesty.As for as titles having any bearing on selection of a puppy for most individuals, they're nothing more than a title on a piece of paper,with little or no knowledege of what it means or the amount of training it took to get it. Dog sports entusiasts make up a small portion of overall puppy buyers, and very few first time buyers have any knowledege of schutzhund or interest to learn. Any experienced buyer, especially one wanting a dog for a specific venue should have enough knowledge to evaluate a litter and the sire and dam of said litter and form his own opinion as to  what meets his needs and what doesn't.Again I'm not bashing schutzhund or any other dog sport I think its a great tool for determining a good sport dog candidate and a great sport for those wishing to participate.

Max v Stephanitz said : Breding for sport will improve the breed at first, but after 3 generations it will lead to certain deterioration of the breed. (Quoted freely).
 SchH is a sport and omits many aspects of the dog's temperament. I have seen well trained titled dogs which I would never breed to. Also  often in top competition dogs the HD background is treacherous. I know from personal experience from conversations with top competitors that they do not care if the dog is going to walk at 7 years of age because his top competition age is around 4.After that who cares, they say. Now you have these top performers and often even Bundessiegers who everybody wants to breed to and thus they perpetuate the problem.
SchH degenerated into sport and only few are using it as it was originally  intended.That is TEST FOR BRED-ABILITY.

German police is generally not buying GSD in Germany any more and goes to Holland, Czech, Slovak , Belgium or buys Malinois. That is tanks to competitive sport of SchH.  I am starting breeding program for dogs for police because GSDs  for police are harder and harder to be found. Hardness and courage through defense is rare. These are sociable dogs though. These dogs have no titles and my police contacts do not care.
 Prager (Hans)
http://www.alpinek9.com

As for as the original ot, breeding without title hardly constitutes breeding without thought. Breeding title to title for the sake of the titles is in my opinion breeding without thought , although this seems to be exceptable to some. If we limit breeding to titled dogs,where do we establish the criteria for which titled dogs can be bred and which ones cannot or shall we just take it as a given that all titled dogs are breedworthy.Shall it be based on level of achivement 1 2 3, based on V scores, based on level of competition,club,regional,national,world, or should it be based on sibling and progeny achievements. We've all seen flash in the pan dogs that won at all levels,but yet produced nothing in its offspring although the dog might have been a WUSV participant several times and bred to a titled bitch or several different ones as is the case with some,still it produced nothing in the way of breed improvement. Titles mean little to nothing in a breeding program unless theres an exceptional dog that comes with it, capable of reproducing himself in his progeny.JMHO

I love and enjoy all of the discussion Cendos' question has raised...  It's healthy to see the differing opinions and what not, and I'm glad we can all communicate through this medium.

I was thinking about the question that Cendos asked in the original post:  what is the goal of breeding our GSD's, and I wonder if I missed the point earlier...

Is breeding to better our breed of choice, or is it to make money.

If it is the former (to better our breed), there will obviously be differing opinions as to what "betterment" entails.  However, if it is the later, to make money, then I'm sure, after serious inqueries and investigations, we might all reconsider Cendos' question.

I will agree with some who have posted that Schutzhund is not the "be-all-and-end-all" for the GSD.  There are many who go untitled who are still "good" dogs.  PERSONALLY, and it's just my taste, I want a dog that will perform to the standards as set by the SV.  Afterall, no recognized breeding is done in Germany without consent of the SV.  Having said that, I cannot understand or find excuse for breeders who breed untitled dogs - no matter how phenomenal a bloodline may be.

If we require "titles" for the professionals of our world - doctors, teachers, law enforcers, etc. - and those titles provide a certain kind of compensation, why shouldn't we expect it of our breeders?  IF our goal is to better our breed, right?  How can anyone justify an $800 stud fee for an unproven male?  Our doctors can charge fees because they have proof that they are credible.  This is not to say that their credibility is absolute - just that it is a basic requisite for the amount of money they demand.  The same can be said about that kennel's puppies for sale.  $2000 for progeny that come from unproven parents?

The stud that is offered, no matter how closely you look, is not proven.  Not even a BH.  How can his fee be justified when he's being advertised as a schutzhund dog with awesome drives, PERIOD?!?!?!  If I wanted a pet, I would go to a farmer who had non-proven lines.  That would be acceptable.  But I want a working dog that is proven to work...  This breeder DOES NOT offer me that. 

I think a lot of good discussion is raised about health and the concern for betterment of the breed's physicality is great...but I also think the bottom line is simple:  we, as breeders, trainers, or handlers, cannot demand  high amounts of money for animals that are advertised as worthy of that cost without support of a title that directly speaks to the animals' skill.  So, without dancing around the subject:  if you, as the breeder, advertise that your dog has amazing drives and is a proven producer IN THE SPORT of Schutzhund, you OUGHT to be able to back it (your dog AND your word) up by providing me (aka the purchaser) with some sort of title.

Apply it to people:  You wouldn't pay someone oodles of money when you weren't sure they were capable of getting the job done, right?  It's no different for a person who is looking for a sport dog...  Again, that's just my humble opinion and probably only worth something to me.  :)