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by urry on 02 August 2009 - 03:08
A pup can't read the papers saying hey my parents are champions so should I. Ive bought several dogs from untitled parents. and have very good success with them its all about picking out a good pup and laying down good foundation work
by von sprengkraft on 02 August 2009 - 06:08
We talk about SchH titles, for we have German Shepherd Dogs. A BH is not a title, just a prerequisite to actually title your dogs. By putting the titles on our German Shepherd Dogs, we learn the trainability of the dogs, we learn if a dog can stand up to the training, we learn if a dog has good nerves, we learn if they are athletic, we maintain the standard which german shepherd dogs have been held to for over 100 years.
We "breeders" who care enough to breed to produce dogs who can carry these same abilities, also track the dogs we produce. That is how we come to have "proven" producing bitches or dogs. Anyone can prove dogs come out of dogs. It is the quality and characteristics of the produced dogs which are the pay-off of our hard work. And yes, we also chart hip/elbow production, etc..
I have done SAR, agility, conformation, herding, flyball, AKC/UKC obedience, and sledding. Not one of them compares to the team work required to put a SchH3 on a dog. SchH includes tracking, obedience, and bitework which all require searching, being agile, good ground covering movement, keeping account of the herd(handler, helper, & judge), grabbing a sleeve in the mouth, maintaining obedience in drive while at a high level of aggression. So, I guess SchH is everything rolled into one.....except sledding, which I just did for fun, not competition.
Go put a SchH 3 on a dog, then tell me how it isn't any more than the other competition.
Debbie
We "breeders" who care enough to breed to produce dogs who can carry these same abilities, also track the dogs we produce. That is how we come to have "proven" producing bitches or dogs. Anyone can prove dogs come out of dogs. It is the quality and characteristics of the produced dogs which are the pay-off of our hard work. And yes, we also chart hip/elbow production, etc..
I have done SAR, agility, conformation, herding, flyball, AKC/UKC obedience, and sledding. Not one of them compares to the team work required to put a SchH3 on a dog. SchH includes tracking, obedience, and bitework which all require searching, being agile, good ground covering movement, keeping account of the herd(handler, helper, & judge), grabbing a sleeve in the mouth, maintaining obedience in drive while at a high level of aggression. So, I guess SchH is everything rolled into one.....except sledding, which I just did for fun, not competition.
Go put a SchH 3 on a dog, then tell me how it isn't any more than the other competition.
Debbie
by macon on 02 August 2009 - 06:08
I think that some of you are still missing my point. There are a number of ways that you can prove that your dogs can work/ are working. Obtain the minimum title your sport ex: sch1. My concern is I am seeing more and more people breeding so called working litter charging an insane amount of money and when you do a little research you find that the parents are non titled dogs so how do you know as a buyer that the dogs parents have what it takes to obtain titles and that it can be past on to the litter.
Yes we all know about the mid night trials and such. We only have to go to a Sieger show to discover that these supposed titled show dogs can even run around the ring in a heel position. But is that going to stop breeders from titling their dogs by saying that Crappy dogs have titles therefore I am not going to title my dog because it can work I just choose not to. That is ridiculous!
I believe if you are going to say that you breeding a working dogs and you are not titling the parents let me ask you why not? I believe that the the truth for most cases is that the dogs are crap and they know that doing more that a photo op on sleeve is too much for them.
Yes pedigrees are great but I have seen some puppies, with stacked pedigrees, that come form non titled parents and most if not all are crap. The best chance that we have is for breeders to title dogs. The system in not perfect but it is what we have.
My personal belief is that we have breeders more concerned with easy money instead being concerned with what the produce. Why else would they not take the time to title their dogs. Stop breeding and start training.
Lets put the question to these breeders out there. If you are breeding non titled dogs and passing them off as working dogs, why are you not taking the time to title your breeding pairs if what you have is really that good?
Yes we all know about the mid night trials and such. We only have to go to a Sieger show to discover that these supposed titled show dogs can even run around the ring in a heel position. But is that going to stop breeders from titling their dogs by saying that Crappy dogs have titles therefore I am not going to title my dog because it can work I just choose not to. That is ridiculous!
I believe if you are going to say that you breeding a working dogs and you are not titling the parents let me ask you why not? I believe that the the truth for most cases is that the dogs are crap and they know that doing more that a photo op on sleeve is too much for them.
Yes pedigrees are great but I have seen some puppies, with stacked pedigrees, that come form non titled parents and most if not all are crap. The best chance that we have is for breeders to title dogs. The system in not perfect but it is what we have.
My personal belief is that we have breeders more concerned with easy money instead being concerned with what the produce. Why else would they not take the time to title their dogs. Stop breeding and start training.
Lets put the question to these breeders out there. If you are breeding non titled dogs and passing them off as working dogs, why are you not taking the time to title your breeding pairs if what you have is really that good?
by Mindhunt on 02 August 2009 - 23:08
Macon, what is your definition of "working dog" and what is your definition of "sport dog"?
by Gustav on 03 August 2009 - 01:08
Macon, I notice you didnot address my reference to Carmspack. I wonder if the Carmspack dog at your nationals outed or not???
BTW, I have a puppy out of one of the dogs that competed at your nationals. Arctic vom Dragohaus, OH but he didn't pass tracking and i remember you had a rant about difference in dogs that pass all three and those that fail obedience or tracking. Doesn't make a difference, this puppy is off the hook, but I didn't buy him because of his titles, i bought him because of his lines and the fact they compliment what i possess. If his hips and elbows work out he will continue to help me produce LEO dogs. peace!
BTW, I have a puppy out of one of the dogs that competed at your nationals. Arctic vom Dragohaus, OH but he didn't pass tracking and i remember you had a rant about difference in dogs that pass all three and those that fail obedience or tracking. Doesn't make a difference, this puppy is off the hook, but I didn't buy him because of his titles, i bought him because of his lines and the fact they compliment what i possess. If his hips and elbows work out he will continue to help me produce LEO dogs. peace!
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