OT - The 2010 Census - Page 3

keepthefaith,

I hope things turn out for the best ........good luck!!!

RPK

RPK, sorry abou the delayed response. Trying to resolve a broken down a/c system has taken up a lot of my time! Never realized that finding where freon is leaking would be such a challenge for HVAC professionals!!

Anyway, my issue is not the eavesdropping of itself as much as any administration wishing to do so without any constraints. It really does not matter to me whether it is a Republican or Democratic administration. I just have a problem with any such surveillance without the checks and balances that are built into our system of government. The FISA courts were structured to give any administration leeway to conduct surveillance and then seek judicial approval within a reasonable period thereafter. The Bush administration did not want to have any judicial review of such surveillance. This is a dangerous precedent - as we know power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Consititutional interpretations are to some extent in the eye of the beholder - that is why we have such a divided Supreme Court. So I could quote some constitutional authority who would cite a position and you could counter with that of another scholar - so it is not a productive exercise. But as far as spying on American citizens, here is an article in the NYT that addresses the issue:

www.nytimes.com/2005/12/16/politics/16program.html

Let me state again, my issue is with ANY administration that takes upon itself such power - Republican or Democratic.

Re my comment about you backing Ron Paul, I got my ids' mixed up - it was Babyeagle who I had in mind. Not easy to mix up a rodent with a bird but.............................

kEEP THE FAITH i TRUST YOU WOULD READ THE CONSTITUTION VERY CAREFULLY! i MEAN NO DISRESPECT IN MAKING SUCH A STATEMENT.We are protected under the constitution from UNREASONABLE search and seizure! I have no problem with govt survellience of terrorists. However since our attorney general has labeled almost everyone other than the dead as terrorists our govt can freely spie on everyone now! As for the position of being an abslolutist I take exception to your remark ! I am fully capable of having a meaninfull conversation on any subject. My only constraint is the rules laid down by the authors of the books.Namely the constitution and the bible! Our constitution has been watered down by our leaders to strip us of our rights as foretold by the holy bible. I govern my acts of citizenship by the laws of the constitution and my acts of morality by the scripture.Neither are open to interpetation! Yes everything is black and white only the slack moral values of the majority wish all to be gray! Now we are going to be taxed for carbon emmissions at the behest of the united nations and this july will experience for the first time in our history foriegn troops on our native soil training to suppress the rights of americans in the event of martial law! Now how do you interpert that event! Mexican military troops in the suburbs of detroit traing to suppress home grown terrorists demonstrating for jobs and food ! Sadly enough most will only wake up when that foriegn speaking soldier has his gun in your face! Once upon a time we had foriegn soldiers here fighting along side us to keep and obtain our freedom from unrepresented taxation! That taxation will be going to carbon tax credits for foriegn countries administrated by the united nations under the bush nwo.

Raymond, you may not realize this but you pretty much agreed, in your last response, with some of what I said.

Yes, the constitution protects us against unreasonable searches and seizures but what consitutes "reasonable" in the context of the law is subject to interpretation. What one judge may view as "reasonable" may not be what another judge deems to be so. So we have the SCOTUS to make the final decision on issues of constitutional interpretation. But the justices on the court themselves frequently disagree on interpretation and so we have divided opinions between "liberal"  and "conservative" justices. The very fact that they interpret the constitution and the law differently in deciding cases demonstrates conclusively that eminent lawyers, in good faith, can differ in how the constitution should be interpreted. So things are not as black and white as you think even when it comes to the constitution in terms of its application and interpretation.

You said: "I have no problem with govt survellience of terrorists. However since our attorney general has labeled almost everyone other than the dead as terrorists our govt can freely spie on everyone now!"

Now leaving aside whether the AG has, in fact, done what you say, it is precisely why I don't want ANY administration being given unchecked authority to spy on people, eavesdrop, etc based on a determination that they are fight terrorism. The Bush administration may have wanted such authority to fight terrorism but I want the courts to be involved and examine the basis for such action. I don't care whether it is the Bush administration or the Obama administration - I just do not trust any administration to have such power because there is the potential for misuse.

Re matters of biblical interpretation, there are literally hundreds of churches and denominations that claim to follow the Christian faith and some differ in their interpretation of vital doctrinal elements. You don't have a monopoly on the "truth" as you see it in the bible - any more so than I do. You may think you do but it does not make it so. But this is not an invitation to start another discussion on religion or faith. You believe that you have found the truth and a path to salvation and that is all that matters. Similarly others feel the same way - and I am happy for them. I will say that for a person of faith you have a lot of anger in you that comes across in some of your postings.

Finally, you and some others who post on this board have a whole different view of this country than I do. I have infinite faith in the basic decency and common-sense of the average American. I am not worried about my guns being taken away, being taxed to death, foreign troops being used against the citizenry, illegals being the reason for our problems and so on. Some on this board see a conspiracy in everything that happens - I don't. Perhaps I am being naive - or maybe some of the people who see these endless conspiracies have a distorted view of life.

I did not vote for Bush but once he became president, as a citizen, I respected his office even if I disagreed with many of his policies. I personally feel that he was an unmitigated disaster as president but he was elected the office and our system of government requires us to respect the will of the electorate. All the nonsense that is spewed about the legitimacy of Obama's election is ridiculous whether it is the nonsense about his birth certificate or whether his victory was because of the alleged vote-rigging by ACORN, etc. Someone even posted on another thread that if Obama's election were not decided through the electoral vote then he would not have won - irrespective of the facts.

KTF said -

Finally, you and some others who post on this board have a whole different view of this country than I do. I have infinite faith in the basic decency and common-sense of the average American. I am not worried about my guns being taken away, being taxed to death, foreign troops being used against the citizenry, illegals being the reason for our problems and so on. Some on this board see a conspiracy in everything that happens - I don't. Perhaps I am being naive - or maybe some of the people who see these endless conspiracies have a distorted view of life.
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Perhaps I am being naive -  Yep !

It's not the basic decency and common sense of the average American that bothers me, in fact I think you are correct there.  But it's the losers that have bought their way into public offices that has me concerned.  They are out of touch with the common man, swayed by the promise of easy money, and completely unconcerned with what their choices do to us, the taxpaying American subjects.

I am not allied with any party.  To have "parties" in government is,  to my mind, detrimental, and has done us no favors.  I am an American citizen, and I demand that myself and my fellow Americans not be stripped of their livelihoods, not for any reason.

I did not own slaves, though my ancestors may have, and I don't owe anyone a damn thing if they did.  I don't break any laws, and I won't be told that I am violating some law that the Constitution wouldn't recognize anyway.  I mind my own business, don't spy on my neighbors, don't push my beliefs and my religion on others., and I don't owe anyone for that.  I didn't create the mortgage bubble, and I don't owe anyone for that.  I didn't do a lot of the things that we are now being told we will pay for, and I don't owe anyone for that.

I say if a big mortgage company, auto company, or some other company is failing, LET THEM FAIL.  The world has always be about survival of the fittest, and if a company isn't fit, then it falls.  That's the way the world works.  You can't inject money into the problem and expect it to fix the problem, because nine times out of ten, when a big business fails, it's because there are too many college geeks up there "bonusing" the company to death.  Yes, there are always lost jobs when a company falls, but the economy recovers a whole lot faster because the reins are taken by someone who can run the company, and it again succeeds.

KTF, if you prefer to sit back and think that everything is just fine and rosy, then that's your choice.  I hope, I really hope, that you're right, and that I'm wrong.  I'd like to believe that.  I'd sleep a whole lot better if I did.  But I'm afraid that it just doesn't work that way.  Not anymore.  Maybe not ever again.  The biggest threat to the way business is now being done in DC is the American people who foot the bill for it, and you'd better believe they are aware of that fact, and are prepared to face it. In fact, the only reason they likely haven't is that there is no telling who is armed, with what, where they are, and how many there are.  That's why the new taxes and all the rest of it.   They're hoping that a lot of folks like you will gladly tell them all they need to know to deal with you effectively.  

Pray that you are right, and I'm wrong.

Crys

I thought the government was spying on me, but it ends up cameras come standard on phones now.


RPK

Cry, I am an independent - my views are fiscally conservative and socially liberal. The last time I voted for a Republican was in 1988 and 1992 for the elder Bush. He is probably the last presidential candidate who had the credentials to be president. He was a decent man who had a good understanding of geo-politics. Today's Republican party has been hijacked by a group of nuts and it will be the death-knell of the party. They certainly lost me and I am what would be deemed a "moderate". I am all for lower taxes but only if we can reduce spending. Tax cuts without reduced spending is idiotic and is responsible for our national debt sky rocketing under Reagan and W. This is a fact.

The Republican party has a death-wish - most of the electorate under the age of 35 leans Democratic - they don't subscribe to the social agenda of the right-wing. The blacks were lost to the Republicans decades ago. Now they are alienating the Hispanics - who are the largest minority in the US. The seniors who have leaned Republican are a dwindling number for obvious reasons. So we have a party that relies on the religious right, neo-cons and other right-wing nuts - and the Southern states. I am sorry about this for only one reason - I don't think it is healthy for the US to have either party dominating the political landscape. It invites radicalism. The only thing that can save the Republicans is if the economy does not show any improvement in the next four years - or gets worse.

You said: "I say if a big mortgage company, auto company, or some other company is failing, LET THEM FAIL. "

I am with you as long as there is not a financial melt-down. Therein lay the risk if we let some of the major institutions fail.

"KTF, if you prefer to sit back and think that everything is just fine and rosy, then that's your choice. I hope, I really hope, that you're right, and that I'm wrong."

I believe that much of the doomsday scenarios that are posted on the forum is because Obama is president. The antipathy to Obama is almost visceral. 

Amidst all of the economic carnage, I am better off today than I have ever been. If you followed my postings a few months ago, I started re-investing in the stock market when the market was in free-fall. There were those on this forum who said I was nuts to do so. I did so based on my faith in the US, the people and our capacity to adapt and rebound. Today, the money I invested a few months ago shows a return of 40% - just sorry that I did not invest more. I will go back into cash by September in anticipation of the usual decline that occurs in the September/October time-frame. From the time I was in my twenties, I have saved money - even when my earnings were relatively moderate. It enabled me to retire early and today I am reaping the benefits.

I repeat - I have TOTAL faith in the US and our capacity to adapt. I don't care who is president and who controls Congress. There may be aberrations - I believe the election of W was an aberration but the American people whose good sense is amazing threw the Republicans out of office - and rightly so, IMO.  Am I naive? If I am, then my naivete has served me well. Those who live their lives in a state of paranoia end up losing out.

KTF,

Rock on! How does one use those emoticons,anyway?

KTF, I'll take your kind of naivete over the paranoids, any day of the week.  

dshlerner: look up at the menu bar on the editor, and click on the smiley face, that brings up the pop up block, then just click on your choice of emoticon.