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by Get A Real Dog on 12 March 2009 - 00:03
Anyway, I agree with your point about breeding for quality dogs and that Sch is not an all inclusive test of a dog (nor is ring or any sport for that matter) I have my opinions on which sport is a better test, but again not relevant to this thread. There are young GSD's that can do this and handler this kind of pressure.
If you go to this page:
http://orkies.com/?q=Videos
and look at the Baden Ring Seminar videos, these are videos of a ring seminar I took 4pack and her dog to.
This should not be a pissing match between breeds. Good dog is a good dog is a good dog. But there are OK dogs out there that are fun to train and give the trainer and handler a chance to put their training to the test and try to bring out all that particular dog has to offer.
I posted this to show an example of top level FR training because you don't often get a chance to see video like this. In addition, I do think it is important to show that there is more to life than Sch.
by Domenic on 12 March 2009 - 11:03

by 4pack on 12 March 2009 - 13:03
by Held on 12 March 2009 - 17:03
by anvardean on 12 March 2009 - 18:03
by VonKohlenBerg on 12 March 2009 - 19:03
Held, what don't you understand. Both breeds are working breeds. Therefore both breeds should be able to do the same type of work/training.
All working (in biting sports) dogs should be held to the same standards Regardless of breed. This is the same double standard that as created the crippled show line gsd. We hear it all the time " he works good for a show dog".
If gsd people do not start paying attention to other sports such as the ring sports and psa, we may one day in the near future be saying " that gsd works pretty good for a working line gsd".
Of course the gsd and the malinois are two different breeds. But a good working dog is a good working dog.
Held, why all the name calling? What's the matter, did I hurt your little feeling by disagreeing with you?

by 4pack on 12 March 2009 - 20:03
I agree they are 2 different breeds and Malinois seem to generally show more potential at a very young age. You don't see many 6 week old GSD pups with crazy prey drive like you do in Mals. Tiekerhook seems to be the exception. GSD's take longer to develope, both physically and mentally. At 4mos, that Mal was much more agile than my GSD at 5mos, who was still tripping over his own big ass feet. So I don't think it's fair to compare the breeds at that age. I'm sure some Mals that show as promissing pups, develope issues and quirks and hereditary shortcomings, say maybe nerve issues, that hold them back. I have seen plenty of GSD pups that looked like super prospect fizzle before reaching adulthood too. Many dogs have the drive to do the work but some lack something else to keep in the work. Environmental issues, not enough courage when the pressure is really on....

by july9000 on 13 March 2009 - 14:03
You can take the most agile GSD from the biggest working line and it won't be agile like most standard Malinois..They simply can't because of the way they are built.much more heavier and longer.
But on the bite work..a good GSD has a stronger bite than most Malinois. they have stonger jaws..it is a simple fact..the same fact that a mastiff or pitbull have a stonger bite than a GSD..
French Ring was designed for Malinois..schutzhund was designed for GSD..Of course they can do both but each one excel in their own sports..
I'm tired of comparaison when it is in fact they are two different breed (on nerves issue too) and I don't expect a GSD to act as a Malinois. I know it is hard to accept but a lot of working folks looks into Malinois now for the sport because they are faster and more agile. They are hard to beat on the field..and people want to win!
I'm not stating that Malinois are nerves bags..iI know some that I like very much but GSD in my opinion is an overall more courageous and stable breed.
by VonKohlenBerg on 13 March 2009 - 14:03
I agree, the malinois is generally faster and more agile due to the difference in structure. Or in other words the malinois has a BETTER working structure.
Quote; "But on the bite work..a good GSD has a stronger bite than most Malinois. they have stonger jaws..it is a simple fact..the same fact that a mastiff or pitbull have a stonger bite than a GSD.."
By this quote I can tell that you have very little experience with biting sports and different breeds in biting sports. There is alot more that goes into how hard a dog bites than just breed. The hardness of a bite is greatly influence by the individual dog, genetics, mental state of the dog during biting, training, and then jaw muscle size and head structure. Example, one of the hardest biting dogs I have ever taken a bite from was a 55 lb. lab mix that was scared out of his mind.
Quote; "French Ring was designed for Malinois..schutzhund was designed for GSD..Of course they can do both but each one excel in their own sports.."
Schutzhund use to look alot like French Ring and other ring sports. What I believe happened was the work was to hard for the showlines so they started watering the breed test down. If you believe that schutzhund is a good breed test today, then I would say you are a large part of the problem with the breed today. By the way a german friend of mind informed me that schutzhund was originally made for the doberman not the gsd. Here is a clip of schutzhund in 1936. Notice the jumps are much higher, the "helper" is pressuring the dog and there are many bite senerios such as bites on bikes. Most of the bites are not good but I would think the training was pretty primitive then. Also notice the structure of the dogs. They look alot like malinois and wl gsds then showline dogs. If todays showline structure is superior I would think those dogs would be able to jump way better.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsBi0PehfAM&feature=related

by july9000 on 13 March 2009 - 15:03
I didn't say Malinois didn't bite hard..I know they can..but I think If you take a strong working GSD..the bite is stronger than a Malinois.IMO
I don't think schutzhund is a good breed test but it is what we have now..I would like to see much more REAL life situations in a breed test than just the same routine again and again. Some schutzhund 3 dogs don't even know what a real situation is?? They are trained to do the same things again and again..they can anticipates all the things that will happens!
I would like to see more unexpected things than well planned routine..I would give us more of an idea of a dog true character and courage..IMO
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