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by olskoolgsds on 07 February 2009 - 21:02
Well said.
by Jenni78 on 07 February 2009 - 22:02
by olskoolgsds on 07 February 2009 - 22:02
I am in total aggreement that genetics is the first thing to consider in most issues. However, one can not rule out enviromental exploiting genetics in handler aggression as Abhay pointed out. You can take many dogs that are high drive, dominant dogs, and give them a home that has no boundaries, the dog is allowed to do as he pleases, no corrections for aggression in fact he often is rewarded for aggression. Then you add to that a person who is weak, or afraid of this dog after he reaches maturity and now you have a dog that is ripe for handler aggression. I have seen too many dogs that simply were more than the insecure owner could handle, and now there was a huge problem.
I say all this to say that unless someone has looked at this dog, evaluated this dogs aggression, put him through the ropes, no one can say for curtain that this dog will produce handler aggressive pups. It may be 50/50 or any other figure of genetics and learned. The 50% genetics may only mean a dog that is dominant and needs a stronger handler.
Toooooooo many dogs are written off as handler aggressive when it was merely a matter of a dominant dog in the wrong hands, and fearful submissive hands are the worst. And from this we are going to make a black and white decision on a forum and say the pup is no good???? Gotta do more firsthand research.
by triodegirl on 08 February 2009 - 01:02
by Kalibeck on 08 February 2009 - 13:02
I consider this analogy the easiest to wrap my feeble brain around...if you wire your house for 220- you may never use it, but you always know it's there. And if you do something dumb, you could possibly electrocute yourself. That's my take on the nature vs nurture thing. Having bourne 2 babies, I can tell you personality developes in the womb....but even that is an enviornment influenced by the mothers' behaviour. So even a newborn person or pup has already been exposed to some stimuli, either positive, negative, or both. How their system reacts to the stimuli is genetic, how they respond to the stimuli is learned....up to a point-------exempting the fight or flight reaction of fear. Their threshold of tolerance before they experience fear ....or rage.....is preset by genetics, but can be tempered by experience. The most brilliant of scientists & behaviourists still argue about this, so I don't dare to presume I have the answers, just my very humble opinion, based on my own experiences. jackie harris
by triodegirl on 08 February 2009 - 22:02
by Jenni78 on 09 February 2009 - 15:02
What did they do? Run and tell the owner you told who the dog was? Jeez. Why's it such a secret anyway? Isn't it your business if you're deciding on a puppy to get other people's opinion on the sire? People need to relax and mind their own business. I would still take the dog. AND HIS SIRE, LOL! 
by Kalibeck on 09 February 2009 - 16:02
by triodegirl on 10 February 2009 - 01:02
I heard from the owner of Olex von der Kine today and need to clear up a few things. I previously did not want to mention the sire's name because the information I had was second hand from the previous owner of the bitch Olex was bred to and I worried may not be as reliable as talking directly to the owner. (Until today I didn't even know how to contact the owner.) I suppose it's like the game of telephone most of us played as a child. Everytime a story is repeated it changes and it becomes less and less reliable. But I did tell a few people through private message who Olex was and learned a valuable lesson. Never put anything in a private message you don't want broadcast over the entire world. Private messages are anything but private.
Wayne Stephens (Olex's owner) told me the "attack" was not unprovoked as I stated in my original post. Olex had injured his foot the previous day and when Wayne attempted to look at it, Olex lashed out in pain. Wayne said the bite was his fault as he should have put a muzzle on the dog.
The other issue I need to clear up is the puppy. Wayne does not owe me the puppy, it is the previous owner of the bitch. Even though he sold her to Wayne, he said he could still get me a puppy from the litter. Just want everyone to know the puppy has nothing to do with Wayne. I apologize for not making that clear. And I apologize to Wayne and Olex for the grief I caused them. I'm a bit embarrassed for all the comotion this thread caused. It certainly wasn't my intent.
This was still an interesting discussion though and I thank everyone who contributed.
Sue
by RONNIERUNCO on 10 February 2009 - 02:02
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