Breeding or training, Nerves or drives? - Page 3

This has always been the case until the last 15…

Always? What were you doing with GSDs before the last 15 years? What did you see, with your own eyes, 20 years ago that is different now?

                   

This is malinois breeding and not shepherd breeding

Please tell us about the Malinois you have breed or trained? This is not my experience with Malinois and I would love to hear a different perspective.

There have always been GSDs of different drives and temperament. We see different drives and temperament within a litter; what makes you think we won’t see differences in different lines? And this is a good thing. Most people don’t need the temperament that most police dogs should have. The only GSD I have ever seen that could be all things, to all people, at all times, was Rin-Tin-Tin.

I think that it is a good thing to have dogs that vary within the breed. In a way it stops the breed from becoming lopsided. Breeders can always go to other lines to find the qualities that they want to incorporate into their own lines. Maybe the REAL Golden Middle is not within a dog it is within the breed.

As a breeder, of course we breed higher drive dogs to make the work easier. Our ultimate goal should be to produce dogs that excel in the work naturally through their drive. Our ultimate goal is not to learn to mask genetic deficiencies in our dogs by showing extreme patience and training ability. For the sport or training end of it that's fine, but we've already begun that slippery slope of forgiving genetic fault if training can correct the issue. (i.e., the dog has no food drive or natural tracking ability, so we force track him and he gets 99 points and everyone says what a great tracker and breeds to him.)

Training, is not genetic, and does not carry over to breeding. That is the problem with people who breed to points and not the genetic animal.

Do not confuse training for genetics and do not confuse nerviness for drive. Do not think that a dog with high drive cannot live with family and kids. I have several that will make you lose your money on that bet.
 

                                                                        Nate Harves

                                                                        www.sportwaffenk9.com

 

                                                                       


 

This question is for the PSD/PPD and so on people who breed. What are the in order of preference the characteristic that you look for in a stud and a female before you put them together. Example Czech pedigree, nerves drives and so on. just trying to see what people are thinking? Thanks

Great post, Nate!

One thing mentioning thresholds, is to be careful to distinguish between threshold to withstand and threshold to react, as examples refered to each in the posts above.  In my opinion, there is a distinct difference.

Christopher Smith said, " what were you doing with shepherds before the last 15 years, What did you see 20 years ago with your own eyes that is different now"

Well, from 1973 to 1977 I was a dog trainer for the U. S. Army, in the 1/29 scout dog detachment (73 to 75) and Military Police(Narcotics Contraband Dogs,1975 to 1977). We had 250 dogs at fort benning at the time. We worked five days a week year around for those 4 years. During that time I had at one time or another taken every one of those dogs out of their kennel including sentry dogs. These dogs were scout dogs, tracker dogs, mine and tunnel dogs, explosive dogs, drug dogs, patrol dogs, and sentry dogs. We also had the bio-sensor dogs, that were known as the "super dogs" from Aberdeen proving grounds. I was not a dog handler but a dogtrainer with the MOS of 00C40, military dogtrainer. Doesn't mean I know everything or anything, but it definitely gives me a point of reference to make my statements. We had no german shepherds in the detachment that had the kinda of over the top drive you see today that in many cases the dog can't settle down. We had tough dogs, we had drug dogs with strong drives, we had dogs with ironclad nerves, especially the army military dogs that were combat and excelled. But the over the top drive that I sometimes see today we did not have. I also titled a dog in sch in the late seventies, and sch was not based on flashy obedience, with rocket recalls, and focus obedience. It was less refined, less about training and more about the dog making decisions as opposed to executing robotic routines. Training was more diversified as dogs were worked with distractions, muzzles, difficult obstacles(jumps and walls), and the grading was based on looking for different things by the judges.
All of these things I not only SAW but did at the time. NOW, I am not comparing those days to these days in terms of better or worse. What I am saying is training,  (Sch was for breed evaluation and not as much emphasis on refined points) , the dogs, and the approach was entirely different. things have evolved since then such as positve prey training, electric, exactness in routine at high speed for points, etc.I am not saying this is good or bad I am saying this is the case as I have seen it. With this evolved the type of high drive dog that i spoke of . Not all sch dogs today are the type of high drive dogs with more drive than brains, but there are some. There are many strongly driven dogs that settle right down depending on need/environment. Your other points it would take to long to elaborate unless you want to talk on phone, but i just wanted you to know that when I speak on something I have a point of reference.! Not saying it entitles me to be right or wrong, but my exposure to training many many dogs, over that period of time at that level of training allows you to be able to make some assessments of german shepherds being as 90% of our dogs were GS.

EisenFaust,

In your own opinion how much drive is too much drive? Also is it possible that a dog with what most people would say was extreme drive is just too much dog for most people. It's not that the dog has too much drive, the problem is that the handler has little expirence with a dog with such a desire to work!
Don't confuse extreme drive with bad nerves, could be bad handling skills.

What is one of the first thing you look for in a puppy? "Drive/Desire"

Nate, I agree with your post also....there are many many dogs with drives that are very strong and yet settle right down in their niche. Not every high drive dog is a dog that I catergorize as "more drive than brains", as a matter of fact most high drive dogs aren't that way though a lot of high drive dogs have nerve issues that training covers up. But I was speaking of the type of dog that we have all seen, that given a choice will go through something they can go around if going around is a viable option. JMO 

 Quote:  These dog's aren't working for YOU, they are working for what they are going to get FROM you. 

Uhhh, they all are. Duuuuuuuh