Who would you breed this bitch too? - Page 3

As told before Troja needs a compact male that will improve pigment...after those 2 criteria are met then start narrowing down by pedigree from there.

have a wonderful day, Nathan

www.HeimatKennels.com

Vickie,  I hope you won't mind if I use this thread as a learning exercise. I was somewhat surprised by your comment   "I don't want to breed that closely on Mutz as I think he was not such a good hip producer.  A 2-3 on Mutz could be a disaster! ". I 'm quite sure that you have much more intimate knowledge than I since you are very familiar with the dogs involved. I also know you have connections in Germany I and many others do not have that probably brings a different level of information. In addition I was out of active involvement in the breed for more than a decade due to family affairs so I am still trying to play catch up in my knowledge. I'd like to tell you what I saw/see when I look at the data that most of us have some access to and then perhaps you could show me what I am missing or share what information you have that brought you to the statement above. I find that Mutz and Marko have a ZW of 84 and 87 respectively. Keeping in mind their DOB 1991 and that they were both fast normal -not horrible. Mutz shows 78% normal and 17% fast normal progeny with 58% examined which pretty much holds for his 2nd generation as well. Macho (bred more) does not do quite as well 70% normal 20% fast normal and 5.66% Nock and 4.25% dysplastic with only 47% xrayed in the first generation. In the 2nd he has a slightly lower normal and a higher fast normal but less Noch and dysplastic.

If we look at Raccoon's Daucus(ZW79 and brother Dshinghis 78) a Macho grandson I suggested, his % is 77% normal 23% fast normal = 100%. Granted he is young and the % xrayed needs to rise and I'm not suggesting this is all due to Macho - obviously it takes two to tango and I'm a great believe in the power of bitch lines.

For example if you look at Aly I think his good hips are most likely attributable to his dam. I certainly can see why you linebred on him tho I think I might linebreed on his mother instead since her stats hold up thru the 2nd generation while Aly's do not. He drops from a stunning 90%/8% normal/fast normal with 59% xrayed to 75%/21% with 52% xrayed which is pretty classic for working dogs and not terribly different from Mutz and Macho. And yes I do understand that he was probably bred to every bitch that there was a concern about the hips and that will carry down in his grandprogeny.I However it's also interesting that he had only one other sibling has a similar ZW  and that her 2nd generation stats also show a drop to the more normal working line range of 75/25 split.

TIG,

Thank You for the information.  It is great information and I ALWAYS will humble myself enough to learn from others when done in a respectful manner......so, thank you!  I will send you a PM about my further thoughts.

Vickie

www.PowerHausKennels.com

Would you consider breeding to Echo Trpaslik Policia. He is now in the USA . Check his pedigree on Data base, good old czech lines

But back to your bitch. Her sire is Calimero a Mutz son. He has a ZW of  70 with littermates all in the 70's. His stats show 83%/13% normal/fast normal in the first generation with 43% xrayed and  90.5/9.5 in the 2nd wtih 27% xrayed. Note also his dam's stats improved in the 2nd generation as well. I find it interesting that he is the only sire bred to Zytta (Troja's mother, an Aly daughter with a ZW of 84) that produced progeny with a ZW less than the mid 80's. 

In addition if we look up the ZW numbers at the SV site the Geerenecke kennel only has a half dozen or so dogs shown with scores ranging from 76 to 97.

So just based on stats (and yes once again I'm quite aware that is not the total picture but it is the most common info we have when researching hip issues) despite the presence of Aly on the bitch line, I would be more worried about the hip genetics coming out of Troja's dam (and granddam) line than those from the sire line.

So as I said I know all too well stats and numbers and pedigrees do not make a breeding and I know that hips are not your sole concern either. But I would truly love some different perspectives on the above information and as I noted if you have info that differs significantly from this I think it would be useful to many of us that have been interested in these lines.  Thanks.

I also have thought about Nero Crosswinds.  He is a Yenny Dollenweise (sp?) son, sister to Yoshy, and a Link Muikenshof grandson, I think.......anyway, I JUST LOVE LINK!  Link and Gildo are my 2 all time favorites!

Vickie

www.PowerHausKennels.com

Vickie, The male I suggested was also a Crok grandson....I realize he has no titles posted....I, too am trying to learn from this. I love these type of threads, where intelligent people discuss their dogs strengths & weaknesses, & how to better them. Nothing could be further from BYB....! This is the PDB at it's best. Compact size & dark pigment were mentioned as qualities to seek out by other posters, what qualities are you looking to add or improve on?

TIG-awesome!

Thank you, jackie harris

Schafferhund,

Echo Trpaslik Policia was born and raised in the US. Not sure where you think he was before he was sold to New Jersey.

Kalibeck,

This bitch is an incredible working dog with a very serious and civil side but a great house companion as well.  What I would really like to improve in this bitch is #1 her structure.....that is why I think Basko Heldmann would be such a good match. #2  She needs better pigment.  She is a very masculine bitch and a little on the leggy side, a truely large bitch, very long in the body, that is why runfast said compact male and pigment.  I did breed her to a compact male with good dark pigment on her last litter.  This litter resulted in some really nice puppies......one of which I just got back from a family that just could not handle her drives.......this was the LOWEST drive puppy in the litter! 

She truely is a special bitch!

Vickie

www.PowerHausKennels.com

Shelly, what do you mean by your comment about it being hard to linebreed on Umsa these days? I take it you mean because of how rare/far back it is in the pedigree now or what? I would really like an Umsa-linebred bitch, but maybe I am looking in the wrong places.