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by Two Moons on 01 November 2008 - 15:11
4pack,
You could train a dog to bite anything, maybe this decoy was not a good actor, didn't properly play the part.
Dog's sense intent as I will call it, and if the threat isn't real the dog isn't going to be motivated to attack it. That's a good thing or you would be in court over the nieghbor's kid's.
Your talking about a different kind of training apart from Schutzund. This goes into PPD and has a whole new set of rules.
Also come's a whole new set of responibilities, and liabilities.
I agree a dog who is going to protect should not care if it's a man or beast, woman or child, only is it a threat.
It's all in how and what you train for.
This work in my opinion is not what a GSD is all about, there are other dog's for this kind of work in my opinion.
There is more to the GSD than this. It's not the gold standard as far as I'm concerned.
Moon's.

by AgarPhranicniStraze1 on 01 November 2008 - 17:11
I think this takes us back to the "be careful what you ask for" when it comes to how far you take a dog in it's protection training. IMO a good dog, stable clear headed balanced dog will know the difference between a real threat and a weakly staged "pretend animated inactment". Hence regardless of man, woman or child the dog will likely know without a given command if his handler is truly in trouble. On the flip side if I gave my dog a command to bite a child that was standing still doing nothing to show any type of threat he would not engage and likely look to me as if to say "why? you are not in trouble, are you SURE you REALLY want me to bite this innocent child for no reason" As I would WANT him to do in this situation. Kids are OFF limits to me when it comes to my dog biting. And when I say child I say that my dog would know a small child not a teenager that may resemble the size of an adult.
Would be bite a female decoy-YES a decoy to my dog is a decoy. If the scenario is played out right and appears real to him he sees no gender difference in how he's expected to react. A child dressed as a decoy I couldn't say for sure as we'd never even go there. If it were dark and a young child was prowling my yard or scaling my fence they may very well get bit. But we've trained that someone scaling our fence is up to no good. I have kids, my house is loaded with kids on a regular basis and I have to be careful with what I wish for in taking any of my dogs to a higher level of PP training. And I must be realistic with MY abilities as being still very green as a handler. Can you teach a dog to bite anyone and anything on command regardless?? YES, but unless you're in law enforcement or have been a victim of a serious crime it's really not adviseable to go there with any dog.
Now if I wanted my dog trained to react that bite means bite regardless of who or what it is and the dog did not engage when told I would be pissed about it and not find it funny at all. We'd be going back over and over again to correct it. If he weren't trained for this type of reaction and merely "tested" to see what he'd really do then no I wouldn't be upset with his reaction but likely would have expected it.
There have been things I've talked to my trainer about wanting to teach my dog to do and we've come to terms now with the understanding my dogs aren't the issue at hand; they are stable and capeable of doing the things I want without question and they can and will do some serious damage if they bite someone...the issue is I have to make the determination of do I want and can I handle that type of liability hanging over my head at this stage in my life given that I get so much child traffic?? I'd rather expose the dog to different weapons than teach him solely that bite means bite and bite anything I say.
by schdiva on 01 November 2008 - 17:11
When my current female was 23 months old, a lady was power walking too close to my son in the stroller. The dog was on a down stay and she came up off her down, bit the woman in the butt and laid right back down. The dog never moved from her spot and her rear never moved, but she handled the threat. No one was gonna touch that boy if I wsn't around. I had gone in the post office to get the mail, and left her in charge. So yeah, I think she would bite a female. She faithfully bites a sleeve, too. Nice and clean. Real world real and sport world real. Just a little "sharp" and what's wrong with that?
I've had dogs for over 20 years and this was my first "real" bite. People don't think about their own actions having consequences.

by missbeeb on 01 November 2008 - 17:11
I would be absolutely devastated if one of my dogs bit / nipped an innocent person. This is the sort of behaviour that gives all dogs a bad name and provides ammunition for the anti dog faction... pretty active in most countries these days!
by Abhay on 01 November 2008 - 17:11
I am big into reality training for man and dog, but children are my weakness. I consider a child to be between the ages of 5 to 11 or 12yrs of age. I guess I can see a dog engaging a suit, no matter who or what is inside. The thought of anyone sending in a dog to engage a child, or a dog that would engage a child without a suit, makes my skin crawl.
In the words of Jules Winnfield,,,, "This is some fucked-up repugnant shit"

by 4pack on 01 November 2008 - 18:11
Remember guys, I said (in a suit). The 2 dogs in question didn't bite someone in a ringsport suit on a field. My dog is still working a suit, no muzzle work for a couple years probably. Baden is still young and it's a game to him, we haven't even turned it civil on him yet. I'm not talking craziness like biting a child unmoving, my dog wouldn't do that and I don't ask him to. I have a house full of kids too.
I'm saying your dog should know the drill by now if your trialing, (hello we are on a field training or trialing, a person in a suit is attacking the handler, by the time you are trialing your dog should have a good grasp on this and how it goes), an attack could be as little as a slight shove or grabbing the back of the handlers collar. I haven't even worked this type of stuff yet, no decoy has touched me. We have worked threat from front/courage test, man coming from behind but still 30 feet away from me and a carjacking, all non touch stuff but NEVER has my dog decided he wasn't going to hit the target. By trialing time your dog should recognize the suit and know on your command it's safe for him to hit it. Anything else would be avoidance or am I wrong?
Now I wonder if there were signs in these dogs at a younger age, sometimes not engaging a tug in certain conditions or places/worry from the dog. I went to allot of clubs and saw allot of new people who worked my dog from 9weeks-9 months and he never failed to want to bite, be it tug, sleeve or suit, didn't matter where we were or who was holding the object or doning the suit/sleeve.
Would that be a nerve issue if a dog wouldn't engage a certain size, color or sex? I'm sure some dogs need to see it a few times to recover or have it trained in. I often wonder before a new scenario, "what will my dog do, what he will think and how he will react? There is always that first time, will he go out on a send, will he bite a guy while we are in the car? Crap I don't even try to train for at home. So far I have only encountered small hesitations (oh you let me go, do I run to that guy and bite, hell yeah he's mine) and the dog engages, first time seeing the drill. First time going over an obsticle (barrels) my dog ran strait at them, almost stopped but then jumped strait up at the last possible sec, knocking some barrels over with his big butt, not pretty but he engaged. The second time he knew what was expected and didn't slow up at the barrels.
There will always be firsts but I judge a dog by how he handles those firsts, not the level of training put on him to overcome himself. I'm not training some super PPD or even a police K-9 just a "sport dog" for now but after we are done titling in PSA I think we will move onto more police type work, searches, harder obsticles, real life situations, off of a field. I'd like to eventually have my dog doing muzzlework and maybe set up a scenario for somebody to show up here at my home doing a mock break-in. Cause how do you know for sure unless you test them?

by jletcher18 on 02 November 2008 - 02:11
dog that knows suit work, or has been trained on a suit and knows that they can bite it on the field and wont bite a person in a suit because it is a female/child ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, get a new dog.
dog trained for personal protection, to alert when told, and wont because it is a woman or child in the picture,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,get a new dog.
i call it an on/off switch. know when there is a threat or is not a threat and respond accordingly. it took me a while to train my male this. for him it was always on. there is no way in hell i could pass a trial let alone walk down the road with a dog who wanted to alert on anything that moves. i had to teach him to be "normal" most the time and to "watch them" when told to.
this only scratches the surface. so many people have given different stories of what their dogs will or will not do. Abhay had a thread a while back about the ability to truly test a dog in a humane way. i feel it cant be done. sport work is sport work and personal protection work is just that. you cant train one the same as you would the other.
john

by windwalker18 on 02 November 2008 - 03:11
The PPD I had would alert on anyone who presented a threat, and would bark alert on anyone I asked him to. I never followed it up by sending on a bite as the gal backed off and vanished on the alert alone. I have no doubt from his posture and attitude on alert that if sent he would have nailed her. Conditioning working dogs by using female helpers and having them help in the building stages of bite work would help the dogs overcome any hesitation.
The untrained (on bite work) bitch we have currently is very alert to strange situations, and will block us from eachother if we are playfully pushing and shoving.. not biting as we're family, but she will block or if we're pillow fighting will lay on top of (completely covering body and face) her #1 person and complain vocally to me that I shouldn't be doing that... She would NEVER bite me as I'm Alpha in the house... but will do anything she can to protect.

by Two Moons on 02 November 2008 - 17:11
4pack,
How do you know for sure unless you test them.
If your going to train the dog to protect you in the house then you should train in the house. If your going to do this you have to find an individual that you do not know to bring into your home, a one time deal. This individual has to play the part correctly and be convincing. You cannot use a suit and you cannot actually let the dog bite this poor SOB. You can tell if the dog will bite or not without actual contact. I use this badguy routine and I can tell you it's not easy to find the right person to do this, the person has to have a certain personality, and the main motivation would be cash !! This would not be someone you would want coming back so I hope the dog put's on a good show.
It aint Schutzund thats for sure.
Your training the dog to sense the threat and the person's intent. The person has to be genuine, a creep, the dog has to use it's brain and sense's to know the difference between this guy and the cable repair man. Dog's already have these skill's, your just testing them.
Schutzhund is a routine, this is not. This is conditioning the dog to do what it should already know to do in this situation using a little stimulation to bring out the natural instinct's of the dog.
You can teach a dog, but a dog should already have these instinct's.
The question is, does the dog have the courage.
Moon's.

by 4pack on 02 November 2008 - 18:11
2 moons, I have to test what? Currently my dog is a sport dog and nothing more.
I'm not discussing training for PPD, my issue is should a "sport dog" bite the suit no matter what? Now I have come to learn the decoy in question wasn't even a woman, the owner just described them as such since their dog didn't find them "threatening" enough to engage. ( A rude dig at the decoy and in my opinion focusing the heat off of his own dog) I'm not buying this since it's a ring trained dog and in ring they don't smack eachother around violently in their scenarios, dogs hit static decoys in suit and moving decoys not even posing a threat to handler but sent accross the field. An attack in ring is laying a hand on handler. I don't find blaming a decoy for not being convincing enough an excuse.
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