The AKC Standard and Whites - Page 3

I'm not sure I understand the last statement.

The progeny of whites were used...though whites themselves were not.  They were accepted....but generally did not make up the dogs important to the breed.

~Cate

What other breeds seperate, castrate, cull, disallow because of color or coat????    Did someone really ask that question?!?!?!   uhhhh, let's see, just about every breed that has specific colors in their standard including weimaraners, dalmatians, dobermanns, dachshunds, great danes, AND labs (heard about the current furor over "grey labs" and the tacky breeders breeding JUST for that new RARE color?  etc., etc., etc.. 

As for this complicating issues, it has actually simplified issues - which is why they are now a completely SEPERATE breed.

As if I'd get a vote in the matter... I'd say #1.  The exclusion of the white coated GSD had nothing to do with health problems or lack or working ability.  If you read Captain Max's holy text you'll see that he just didn't like the looks of a light colored shepherd dog. 

Now how to "fix" that... well that is another matter.  The whites have been pushed out of the bloodlines for so long, I cannot guess how many are left that have the drives and nerves required for real work.  This is complicated at best.  The white GSD enthusiasts breed white to white, or at least white to recessive white, or else they would cease to have the white coat.  This leaves a shallow gene pool, and as for breeding primarily for coat color... we all know that no good comes of that.

So in the world according to Yvette (and my what a scary place that is) the only way to reverse this is to allow whites back into the fold so that they can be reintroduced into the traditional bloodlines and allow whites to crop up from time to time just as the all black GSD pops up in litters of recessive gene carriers.  Not an easy matter to accomplish and I don't even know if it's feasible.

Yvette

The problem with seperating into a different breed is twofold... 1st it reduces the genetic pool available for those who like the white color but ALSO want to breed for correct conformation, movement,working drive and temperment. To only those who are registered as that breed.  The whites born to AKC German Shepherds could not be used for breeding to increase the genetic pool nor to correct problems that might occur from having a small genetic pool nor could they breed to standard color shepherds to improve specific qualities thru factored progeny.   2nd those whites born to pure bred German Shepherds here or abroad would be left in a limbo of STILL not being allowed to show, and if registration were withdrawn not even being able to compete in Obedience, tracking, herding and Schutzhund where they've done quite well. 

While creating a seperate registration and calling them a different breed might be the fastest way to allow a white dog from 100% genetic German Sherpherd bloodlines to be shown in conformation I still feel that the drawbacks down the road are very real.  Personally I LOVE GERMAN SHEPHERDS... all colors.  Unless there is a health issue  regarding the color, such as skin problems in the Fawn Dobermans, blindness or deafness in white Collies/ Aussies and such I see no reason for disqualifying them if they are equal in all other respects.

   To those who rail against breeding for a specific color...  While there are some individuals whose mentalilty about breeding goes no farther than "I got a big white dog, and you got a big white dog, let's breed them and get a bunch of lil white pups"  There are many many MANY more breeders of whites who have taken the time to educate themselves about conformation, movement, temperment and working drives.  Just as many of the conformation ring SV breeders ONLY breed Black and Red, while more of the working lines are Sable/black... It's not JUST about the color, but color is a part of the equasion.

For those that dont believe several generations of white to white breedings cannot produce working dogs and good conformation and solid health, please please go to Europe...or at the very least research the lines there.  Health, structure, workability....AND the dogs that win in the work arena are also winning in conformation.

According to one of the presenters at the breeders symposiom...7 generations without any common ancestors is considered unrelated.  There are several lines of that here in the US...and who knows how many more in the rest of the world.

I think my greatest issue with becoming a part of the GSDCA GSD group again is that we have purposefully avoided that structure in favor of a more functional one.  What might be considered 'correct' here in the USA in the breed ring isnt really what we consider 'correct'.

I spend alot of time looking to Europe and seeing what they have done....with the same lines that we had 30 years ago.  They have created a breed that works, shows, maintains structure, temperament, drives, and is well respected throughout the nations it has been recognized in.  I personally in the two weeks I go to Europe every year have seen them accompany mountaneers and working in SAR in Switzerland.  My boyfriend has seen them working as police in france.  Several are working in sport in Germany, in Holland many WSSDs and their progeny are working at the royal dutch Guide Dog school.  This to me isnt a mark of a breed that has lost its drives...or its versatility.

~Cate

Cate:  I think probably most here are not aware of the strong work ethic and diversity of lines in Europe.  I think option #1 would actually be a step backwards, but then I would dearly love to see all of our European line GSDs secede from the AKC ASS nation too!

 Also, I believe my readings indicate "fading" pigments are often blamed on the white GSD genes. Myth or not, Ceph?

Yay Genetics :)  This is something I tend to feel the most comfortable in.

lol -- the answer is yes and no.

As far as Leather pigment, its a big resounding no...I'm not sure what the gene is....but as both colored and white dogs do and dont get snow nose...I dont think it is affected by the extension white.

As far as the red in the coat -- it's tricky.  The White coat is a masking gene, caused at the most recessive allele at extension locus...it affects the fur and nothing but the fur, but as a result you dont know phenotypically what your dog is in terms of the intensity of the tan points.

The deep red that people like to see in the showlines is thought to be caused by the most recessive allele at the Intensity Locus, which has the following alleles :

Intc - cream/silver
Intf - tan
Intt - red

Since the white masks the phenotypic expression of this, you dont know what your getting.  So if you breed a Black and Red (Intt-Intt, not carrying for white) to a white, these are the following possibilities depending on what the white is carrying (on the tan points, doesnt effect the black points) :

Intc-Intc : all creamier white pups
Intc-Intf : some creamier white, some tan
Intc-Intt : some creamier white, some red
Intf-Intf : all tan
Intf-Intt : some tan, some red
Intt-Intt : all red

There is a theory that the degree cream that frequently shows up in the white coat may be affected by the intesnity locus....theoretically the more white the dog is the more likely it carries for the dominant Intc allele....but again, thats a theory.

But directly?  No, the white coat doesnt effect the pigment...it's what the white coat may or may not be masking that affects the intensity of the red.  Breeding a white masking red pigment is going to produce red pigment just like breeding to a B/red....and breeding a white masking silver is going to produce silver pigment just like a B/silver would.  It's just less obvious without a test breeding in the white.

Hope that helps :-)

~Cate