Herding VS Schutzhund - Page 3

Deejays, I never once touched on AKC herding, only HGH. I don't think 3 sheep is much of a test, 30 maybe, 300 who would say no?

I personally don't even have sheep to use, my dogs work cattle. Trust me, 1 of these Angus is much more pressure than any decoy you can throw at em. 25-50 cattle bunched up staring back...that's allot of big eyes on ya. Better yet, they don't really fear the dogs and will come at you not wait patiently.

Kathy,  Thanks for answering.  You have some great pictures in your dogs galleries.

"When breeding "titled" dogs, would you accept a Herding Title with no Schutzhund Title?"

It's not the title. It's the dog. You can see the character of a dog if you watch it training in SchH or training in herding, and you know what to look for.

Some of the things that are easier to see in HGH herding compared to schutzhund: biddability - the dog has to work with the handler in drive without the use of e-collars or toys, and less use of artificial devices in general; self-control over its own drives - due to much less usage of restraining devices and with the handler at often longer distances from the dog, the dog needs to have much more self-control; power and presence - you can see a dog's natural presence when it faces off dozens of hungry sheep much more easily than any protection routine which is much more influenced by the type of work the helper is doing, there is no cheating with sheep, you can not give instructions to the sheep to take it easy on the dog; physical stamina - shutzhund uses short bursts of sprints and other than a long track, does not test for physical stamina like HGH herding does, that's why an AD is not required; mental stamina - the dog needs to concentrate longer in HGH herding; intelligence - you do not really need a high level of intelligence in a dog in shutzhund (the intelligence of the handler is more important), in HGH herding you do need an intelligent dog that can think for itself (and can do well even with a dumb handler  :-)).

When I was puppy searching I was hoping to find both Sch and HGH titled lines in the pedigree.   We have just started some herding training, and the "sport" of it suits both of us so far.   I think it's great to have a variety of acceptable working titles that not only test and showcase the individual dog's breedworthiness,  but also highlight the versatility of the german shepherd as a breed.

Heather

In herding once the initial border work was taught with a long line on, as a just in case.   :)   Once the line came off, the line was off, the rest of the training is completely without a leash.  And we are talking really only a matter of a couple of week with a line one. The crook is used for guidance mostly.   So, if there's a "tool" used, that's it.   The dog can see it at a distance along with your voice. 

I've also done AKC herding with my guys.    My Ike is actually working on his AKC championship.   The concept is the same, but I do find it different, mostly the way things are judged.   Just like in Schutzhund, you can qualify for HGH, if you have "blown" an exercise.  The AKC has the 50% rule.   In HGH, the judge looks at the entire picture to be a harmonious picture.   I'll be trialing in HGH for the first time in two years with my guys, so I look forward to it.  Also, there's usually just 20 to 30 sheep for AKC.

4 pack, I've often thought about working cattle with my guys.  :)

I would love to know if more people would be interested in pursuing tending if there were more clubs available for training?   I know people are driving pretty good distances to get to schutzhund training, but it seems like finding tending opportunities are even more difficult.   Would people be interested in trying it or checking it out if more clubs were available?

Heather

One issue I have run into is the herding place here meets the same weekend day my club meets.  I can do one or the other... 

 HGH, I would absolutely consider a working title. 

Thanks to those who posted the link to Ulf's site. I'd been meaning to look it up to look at the pics. Small brag here, but his male Anton is a son of my husband's dog, Ari.  He drove down here (something like a 14 hour drive!), got here in time for lunch, then got one breeding in. We had a great talk at dinner which went way late of course. Then got up early in the morning and got another breeding in and he had to drive home to tend to his sheep. 

He came back a year or so later IIRC and bred her again to Ari's brother (Ari had injured his back while working as a K9 and couldn't do the deed), but the brother was also korklassed and a SchH1 (I think). I don't think he was as pleased with that breeding. 

It was great to see the pics, though, Anton looks alot like his dad. Enough that my daughter saw the pic on the screen and said "Is that Griff?" who is our male we have from the same line. Now I wish we'd have found a way to get one of the pups LOL.

Annette

different strokes for different folks.

some people think that schutzhund titles dont mean what they use to.   to them i say, try it.

hgh is a working title according to the SV.  like others have said, not akc herding.

john