check out this show/working cross. - Page 3

"I understand your point Keith, and I know that it would be harder to know the final result of this kind of breeding, but please correct me if I am wrong, isn't this exatly the same way the breed came around simillar to that kind of breeding?"

Of course it is but do we really want to throw away over a century of selective breeding and start all over?

"Two dogs with good traits being put together to improve and create favoriable traits. Surre is long road with lots of surprise but is it wrong? Is it more wrong than breeding two working line dogs together or two showline dogs together?"
 
I, personally, wouldn't do it but that doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong.  I think there is enough diversity within either line to get the qualities you want without mixing the two and would outcross a working line with another working line or a show line with another show line.

"I belive that it might be a step in the right direction to bring both camps closer together (wl/sl)."

If only it were that easy.  I think the division in the camps is more a philosophical difference than it is with any tangible fault with either dog.

"Plus wl/wl and sl/sl is a crapshoot as well so whats the real difference?"

Yes, every litter is a crap shoot to some extent; why exacerbate it?

"I am just tired of seeing breeders liine breeding the living shit out of their dogs, hopeing they will reproduce the great dogs behind their dogs."

And they are successful as are people who breed cows or race horses or many other species of animals (and plants).  There is a very real reason why line breeding is done...it works!

For the reasons Keith stated, I tried to look at this dogs full siblings when I first looked at his pedigree but non are shown. Does anyone know if he has any or was he a lone pup? Of his 4 pups pictured, they are all pleasing to look at. I just wish there was more about his own siblings, what they could have produced and so on.

I feel enough truth in what Keith says to not want to jump at these dogs, for my own breeding purposes but I don't discourage others from forging on ahead. The crosses can obviously produce some very nice dogs, I would just like to see some proof of how they produce in the next generations. However I'm well aware SL have been thrown into alot of breeding farther back 2-4th Gen on dogs I would kill to own.  

I don't know anything about the SL used in the above breeding or why it was chosen, working ethics/to improve structure?  I have seen more than a few Czech breedings with SL used but I am certain in those cases, that SL was as hard as nails and they weren't focused on the looks of the dog. My concern is for those throwing in SL to improve the looks of their WL. If there is a SL that compliments your WL perfectly temperament wise, go for it but I hesitate at anyone who would throw a nice looking but worthless at work VA dog, in with a monster working dog, to try and improve looks and expect to get anything worth a damn. There are plenty of superb looking V rated WL dogs out there, I would use before resorting to a total outcross in lines.

Keith Grossman,
I have to disagree about your statement. It generalizes matters too much. Outcrossing has always been done for various reasons, but most importantly to improve what you have. Robin is absolutely right. Showlines are not the only lines in trouble. It takes wise and talented breeders to do something about it, not the single minded extreme ones on both sides and the ones that only cater to the buyers market.
I did an outcross and was amazed at the uniformity of my litter. All had great drives and working abilities and I think that the owners of my puppies are content, even though I have not heard from a couple of them for a while. One was sold to Germany, one to a working home in NY, another one to a SAR and community services home in PA and two into pet homes. Another one is still with us, but we have decided not to keep her for our breeding program.  However, the reason is certainly not lack of working ability and drive, but medium size. 
My next litter is due in mid-January and will be another partial outcross. This time I combined Czech lines with workinglines in this breeding which took place in Germany.  I found this outcrossed Czech bred male by coincidence in Germany on the Cap Arkona homepage, named Chaman Leryka. He is out of Melano Cap Arkona (Nick Heiligenboesch-son) and Emilka Anrebri (Frankie Anrebri). Chaman is just as much an outcross as Max is, but his mother Emilka has produced nicely after different German workingline males, and Chaman has several nice littermates. He and his brother Chaos have both been qualified for the LGA in Germany.
Steffi took her showline female, a Flipp-daughter to Max, I truly think that it is a great combination. The Ghandi-line is known for working ability as well, plus her female has super nice structure. I wished her lots of luck.
If Max would be younger, I would love to use him if my current puppy Uschi turned out for a linebreeding on the East German-workingline cross Wito von der Stadt Schmalkalden, very interesting linebreeding.
Lots of possibilities with outcrosses and linebreedings, if breeders are knowledgable and do research.

Again, Silbersee, I did not say outcrossing was wrong and I am glad for you that you have attained some degree of success with it.  I was approaching the subject purely from a genetics standpoint and it is what it is.

Ok, then. You either do not want to get into it any deeper or you do not have any first hand knowledge in that subject? Which one is it? Are you a breeder? If so, obviously it would be workinglines. What is it you expect out of your dogs and their offspring? What should GSDs be like? I am also thinking of anatomy because it irritates me just as much when I hear statements that it does not matter as long as the dog has drives and works.
From an objective point of view, showlines have problems with temperament and are getting too soft. Workinglines do not have the structure and are getting further and further removed from the standard. In that area, showlines are often too extreme. I am sure there are more issues I can think of. So, why is it what it is in your opinion? They are still the same breed and if you click past the 4th generation, you might be surprised to find that they are not all that far removed and have the same ancestry. If you want to, we can browse the working-dogs website and I bet that there are others with showline blood in there that have done fairly well.

If you speak from pure genetic point of view, wouldn't a strong producing male that produces consistantly his favoribale traits in his progeany would have high chance of carring it to its offspring, even to SL dogs? I am well aware that if you breed crap to crap you got even more crap, but if you breed good dog to a good dog and one of these dog is known for reproducing his good traits in his progeany than you have rather high chance of success. Which dose not mean that it's progeany will cary the tourch but same would apply to breeding WL dogs to WL dogs. So why shouldn't a breeder try to do this kind of breeding? 

Since we are on the subject of   Working/Show crosses


Here is an example !

Silbersee, I've bred one litter in more than 30 years in the breed, show lines, line bred on Jeck v. Noricum.  I spent six months reading everything I could about not only GSD genetics but genetics in general, talking to everyone I could find with more experience than I and researching pedigrees (on this site, long before most people even knew it existed...it was long after my litter when the forums appeared and registration was made available...my dogs were 23 and 24 generations removed from Horand, respectively)  before narrowing the field down to one of two dogs, Uno vom Haus Babilon, an import who went V35 at the BSZS or Indo vom Geesthügel, which would have been an outcross.  I chose Uno to fix my bitch's croup and was successful at doing so as well as retaining her drives in most of the pups.  That notwithstanding, with the benefit of hindsight and having seen many of Indo's progeny, if I made the same decision today, I would go with the outcross.  Uno is a fine dog with a good work ethic but Indo's work was exceptional...and the judges recognized it...one reportedly having said that if all show line dogs showed his level of intensity, we would not be having the conversations we do today about problems with the breed.

Overall, I learned a lot during that time but found the entire breeding process arduous, time consuming, nerve racking and very expensive.  I don't know if I'll ever do it again but I do appreciate the labor of love people like you bring to the table.

I guess I'm just dumb... to me to it's always seemed that a correctly built dog should be expected to work well, and that a good working dog should be correctly built as well... before either are bred to perpetuate the future of the breed... guess I missed a lesson somewhere along the line..... 

If judicious mix of "working line" and "show line" are used to accomplish this... great... if either can do it on their own, that's fine too. 

Nice dog, He can come here any day... LOL

www.schaeferhunde-sportinfo.de/Deckrueden/Max_zu_den_grauen_Birken.htm

nice scores!

"I guess I'm just dumb... to me to it's always seemed that a correctly built dog should be expected to work well, and that a good working dog should be correctly built as well... before either are bred to perpetuate the future of the breed... guess I missed a lesson somewhere along the line....."

If you are suggesting that this is the only prerequisite for breeding and that any pair of dogs that meet these requirements is automatically a good breeding pair then, yes, I would submit that you missed a lesson somewhere along the line.