Problem with outing - Page 3

The dog needs to understand, in the puppy time, I can or can not do something.  After the concept goes to have or not have something.

So when the dog learns the out in the ball witout chewing and after you making the fighting game with the dog (by yourself) with the leather tug - the dog is self confident with the owner, more respect and listening.

So, you can teach your dog early the out without conflict. After, this is translated to a helper (after the dog has enough experience and the helper is good in reading and movement).

You can not/must not teach your dog the grip and the out at the same time. And if it is a clear out, always must reward.  This is called the fighting game.

Do not force the aus; you will have a chewy out.

If your dog does not out with the helper - go back to your foundation and do correctly.  DO not rush.

In the all protection side, it is very important that the dog understand "get it", "aus", understand WHY he/she barks, complete out.  Basic training.

Poseidon,

That male was actually the 2nd or 3rd time he's done bitework. He's a male that you can start quicker and go a little deeper than you would want to with most young dogs. I was working with him on intense bark and hold, and then sustaining that good calm grip by using what we call the cradle exercise. I think someone touched on that above somewhere when speaking of Bernard Flinks. It helps to calm and soothe the dog while reinforcing success. Can make things very clear. SKI touches on something also that I wanna make sure you're clear on....I always teach the out first on a ball or something, away from protection and a helper, with just me. Here I lay the groundwork for the exercise without conflict. This particular dog knew the out from the ball and such so it was not a big leap to make the out there. I never made it off of me though, and that's a big difference. I was always backed up and out of the sleeve, off the dog.

Here's the video should anyone want to see it, bottom of page:

http://www.sportwaffenk9.com/males.stuka.shtml

                                            Nate

OK, hands up I haven't done my job very well.

My dog who is 15 months does not "OUT" easily with a ball.  She does better if I had another ball in the other hand.  I know this is not ideal and am trying to make her understand the game can only start with a release.  She "outs" well if I use a gappay tug but I have switched to ball play because she seem more driven for obedience work.

Does it mean that I should withold any bitework until I master the "out" during play?

Poseidon, Excellent advice from Nate and SKi above.

No, in my opinion, you need not withhold bitework, depending, of course, at what stage you are in with the dog and that I don't know. Even then, there is likely lots to be done in bitework even if the out is not yet clear and one can work with slipping the sleeve.

As for the out:

What do you do with the second ball in your hand? The bottom line is some dogs do not want to give the item up, be it a ball or a tug or the sleeve. The higher the dog is in drive, the more intent it will be on keeping the item, so that is why it is useful to teach it as a separate exercise and make sure it is clear long before you are asking the dog to out. I also have some very good video of us working outs on dogs in similar methods to what have been mentioned here.

When you pressure a dog to out that does not want to out, it often becomes a conflict and worsens and that can manifest in a variety of ways, including chewing. So one thing to do is use the second ball. When the dog brings the first ball, do you grab for the rope on the ball and pull (assuming the ball is on a rope -if not, it should be)?  If so, your pulling will only increase the desire the dog has to keep the ball and keep it from you. So don't pull against it.

Secondly, work now and then on being clear that the ball really is YOURS!!! You allow the dog to play with it, but it is yours. So if you want to email me privately, I can explain this in more detail and perhaps even send you some short video clips of how to work this.

Finally, when the dog does return to you with the ball and you are holding onto the rope on the ball but NOT pulling, then show the second ball and the split second the dog lets the other one go, be it immediately or as you are actually throwing it, give your out command. It will get easier even with the most possessive dog. And there is nothing wrong with simply working this with the tug, but the bottom line is the dog must get it back IMMEDIATELY at the beginning so that there is no conflict or little conflict in giving it up. 

Good luck. I hope this is helpful to you.

Thank you to all the contributors here on this subject.   I look forward to more training postings from you guys.

In the meantime I will PM Hodie about my ball play with my dog which will bore the rest of you guys cheers!