New Color? - Page 3

ok, dad was imported from the Netherlands, he was a solid black? but had lighter shading on his britches.  Mom was a dark sable out of Champion and german lines. there are blues in the pedigree.

this is an older sister with same coloring:

and this is Bella a little older. She has since gotten darker after getting her adult coat.

almost reminds me of a silver fox.

In my case, the mother was imported from Canada; a SGR VA1 Ursus Batu/VA1 Hillo de Marne La Vallee granddaughter with all -titled pedigree of WGR show lines (line-bred on Zamb von der Wienerau and also bloodlines to Eiko Kirschental, etc). Sire wasn't as well bred as the mother, but had older lines likeV  Enno vom Andreftal (probably misspelled due to being too tired to check) and SEL CH Caralon's Phantom LeBarland.
So, it was mostly West German, but some older American lines also.

I've also seen similar out of a bicolor import female (out of mostly WGR working lines but a few WGR show lines) and a black sire out of 2x VA1 Fanto Hirschel lines and some working lines.
No blues or livers in EITHER case in the pedigrees on my cases. They were AKC breedings, and I am very familiar with their pedigrees-at least 8-9 gens back for each parent involved.

BUT, not to the degree your pics show for the older sister there, Uber. Thanks for sharing the pics! How neat!

it is interesting coloring - but I'd still consider it a black dog with "bleedthrough" - maybe too much bleed-through to be considered good pigment.  I'd have to see sable puppies born to a dog like this (bred to a non-sable dog) before believing it is a sable dog genetically.

molly

These do look like normal recessive blacks that I have seen in GSDs and other breeds.... at least I've assumed them to be so in the GSD without knowing the breeding.  We have some in my local area and there are no black sables here that I'm aware of.

I'm pretty sure that this light undercoat (includes agouti banding of guard hairs too) is not specifically an A locus pattern, but the product of modifiers on A alleles.  I've seen similar in Rottweilers which are exclusively a^t tanpoint.

I have a bicolor dog who does not carry black recessive, with a light and banded undercoat (over her entire body) and " bleedthrough" like this on her neck, shoulders, you can see her undercoat if you look closely on her sides and thighs too - very similar to this.  She is definately not a sable dog.

molly

The Shar Pei breed has pups colored like the one pictured.  They appear black and as they mature they a silver lacing that appears predominately over the shoulders and neck.  Some dogs the lacing eventually covers the coat and the individual hairs are banded in a sable pattern.  The sable color is present in the breed although not commonly seen.  The most common name I've heard given to the Shar Pei color is reverse sable.  At maturity they definitely reminded me of the silver backed gorillas.

Cain, can you post a link to an example of that Shar Pei colour please.  Thank you.

Should it technically be called a "Hypermelanistic Black Sable"? Either way, beautiful dog!

In regards to livers, I know CDA is common in dilutes, but liver isn't a dilute color. It's a full-pigment recessive color. Dilutes are blues (from black) and fawns / isabellas (from red). I did a fair bit of digging a while back, and haven't heard any cases of skin/coat issues with livers. It's just that the standard calls for a black nose, and the liver GSD obviously doesn't have that. Blues, on the other hand, are a different matter, and can have problems with CDA, though this is not a GSD specific affliction.

I know livers are out of standard, I wouldn't breed them, but I love the color. (Like red rotties!)

How could such be labeled as a true 'sable' variation when, in my case, no sables were in the pedigree for the female who's pic I posted? She's got traditional blk/red WGR show-line, bi-color working lines, and black working & American lines. No off colors in the pedigree or anything.  Sable is a more dominant color that usually comes from sables and sable lines, right?

I tend to lean toward what Molly's saying; black with a bleed-thru of color that just sometimes happens. And with females, it seems to be 'stronger' visual bleed-thru than on males.