a question - Page 3

 Senta, you're insinuating that an aid can not be faded out of the picture. That a dog behaves only with the use of an aid and then when the aid is removed the behavior returns. Not if you fade the aid out properly and use the aid properly in the first place it doesn't. Some people may use an aid for the life of a dog for various reasons, but others use it as a training tool, only during the training phases. 

 I use only one collar, member collar without course. On the entire day the dogs without collar run… The collar I use only for training and walking ( walking,  because if there would something happen with me - another has the chance to bring the dogs home ). 

Sure you can train a dog with love and patience just the same as you do with children.  However, without discipline all is thrown away!  I beleive also to love is to administer discipline.  A dog as well as a child needs to know there are boundries and structure and to provide that you MUST have discipline!  This makes a trust worthy dog and a child that will always honor and cherish their parents.

Vickie

www.PowerHausKennels.com

 Dogs learn best in a good mood with motivation - like all animals - and also children. Under stress and obligation is learn not possible. That is long proven.

I agree with Vickie...love and trust with discipline.  My dogs who were raised with the cats get along wonderfully with our family cat, sleeping and hanging out together, even playing together.  Even dogs who have never been around cats before, will usually learn to get along with our cat Fluffy. 

However, cats have their issues too...and Fluffy has taken to teasing Athos and ONLY Athos when he is crated.  Fluffy swats the gate, rubs on it, does stretching and playing activities in from of Athos' crate.  He used to do this to super high prey drive Alexa, who is not here now.  I have to make Fluffy leave him alone!  Now Athos...who had learned to NOT chase the cat, and pass by him nicely and politely-- now Athos wants to chase Fluffy.  He still stops when yelled at, he's such an obedient boy.  I don't know why this cat has to pick out the toughest and biggest dog in the pack to tease...he must be suicidal!.  Veronica

 ok… understood. Words as "discipline" and "love" in one sentence… that I do not understand. Sorry.

… nevertheless, my dogs have also teeth, "high play drive and are working"… and nevertheless no electrical collar...

 a picture of normal playing

Senta,

Perhaps it might be good for you to look at the root meaning of the word "discipline."

It does not mean "beat," "punish" or "correct harshly." It means To Teach. That is what any good owner (or parent!) has to do. Teaching is not antithetical to Love.

Disciplining a dog does not mean taking Fido out to the woodshed for a serious beating, it means expressing what you expect of him through clear and consistant methods that work effectively without resorting to excess. When it comes to training a dog, it's a matter of finding the right tool for the right job. I have no problems using different collar-types for different training programs, even on the same dog. I wouldn't use a slip-collar while swimming or on the treadmill (too much risk of getting caught and strangling)... and I wouldn't use a buckle-collar while on the practice field or in the ring.

If you don't want to use an e-collar, good for you. That's your choice. But it's hardly fair to assume using e-corrections, a prong collar, slip collar, or whatever indicates that the owner doesn't love their dogs and doesn't care about their pup's well-being. Discipline is part of love, setting rules and boundaries: rewarding correct behavior and not rewarding the incorrect ones.

Training tools are just that: tools! And like mentioned above, you need the right tool for the right job.

There is no magic "one correct way" to train dogs. They're individuals. An aware trainer respects this, and finds the correct method and tools that work for each dog on an individual basis, rather than assume they have "the solution" for every dog, regardless of drive, temperament, or personality.

(...I wasn't planning to jump into this one...)

jc.carroll - well said.

Take the same thing off this and transfer to kids - similar behaviour both with training and rewards - however there are the odd occasion where the "big" response is required and doing it once stays with them for life where nagging etc goes straight over their head.  For example the stove is on and the kids keep reaching up to touch something and mummy moves them away nicely, pats them on the head etc 2 minutes later kid is back trying to get to the pan, instead if mummy gives a firm rap over the knuckes as the little fingers reach up the shock tactic will stay for a long time and they learn that cookers = pain.  It was a 2 second lesson that could save the child's life.  Yes with a lot of time and willing to take the risk a child would learn and be taught to understand the risk to it, how do you explain the same thing to a dog.

Also dogs discipline each other and that is done quickly and firmly, and I think that that is the only way to discipline - dont drag it out and discipline 3 hrs later and similary reward for the act and immediately so the dogs associate.  However dogs do need to understand what they are being rewarded for and not be confused as to why they get a "treat".

Senta, your statement is absolutely wrong. Animals learn fastest and best by negative experience leading to avoidence of a negative or threatening stimulus. This is geneticaly imprinted and a question of survival. Whereas teaching a trick with positive reinforcement takes many repetitive actions.

Senta,

I am fairly certain you have never worked a knpv or belgian ring malinios.......