Use of E-Collars - Positive Training??? - Page 3

Positive Reinforcement

 Positive (something is added) Reinforcement (Increasing the chance of a behavior repeating)

  -I ask Dog to sit, Dog sits, I give treat, dog sits.

Negative Reinforcement

Negative (something is taken away) Reinforcement (Increasing the chance of a behavior repeating)

- I ask Dog to sit, Dog doesn't sit, I apply collar corrections, Dog sits

Positive Punishment

Positive (something is added) Punishment (increasing the chance of a behavior not repeating)

-Dog jumps on me, I knee dog in chest, dog stops jumping.

Negative (something is taken away) Punishment (Increasing the chance of a behavior repeating)

-Dog jumps on me, I turn my back and ignore dog until he stops jumping, dog stops jumping, I give back my attention.

Don't argue with me over the terms, argue with BF Skinner......

I know a lot of people have used the Fred Hassen method but what the heck it is, I do NOT have a clue because nobody ever seems to say how it is done using his methods.  It seems almost secretive - I know I have asked before and never really got an answer on what makes that method stand out.  I am not willing to part with money to satisfy my curiousity either. [There is your answer to him on THAT front]

I am familiar with escape training and Lou Castle because he is very open about it. I have used it for certain particulars but don't do a lot with ecollars.

Anway, a 7 on a Dogtra is indeed a VERY low stim.  Not all  dogs like the page function - maybe you have to condition that to be a positive reinforcer by way of association- my female hates the pager and is ok with a low level stim.

If he is going to get angry and upset because you won't place a dog with him that is his problem. Maybe the bloodhound can find a nice working home [I understand there is really not a big show x working delineation in bloodhounds though there are lines very highly sought after] ---

I would also be very very sure the owner you find does not live in a suburban/urban  environment and can be in a place where howling dogs are not going to be getting them in trouble. I have known some bloodhounds that got dumped for this reason. These are truly noisy messy dogs.

yeah BFskinner didn't have technology. dog training is constantly evolving its not static .removal of adversive stimuli =negitive reinfoircement a cue is not a correction besides who is arguing with you??............. and Nancy don't worry your not the only one who thinks Fred Hassen is kooky!! I don't know anyone who thinks hes normal!!!

I've found e-collars are most useful once the dog already knows the command, and what is expective of him. Simply yelling: "SIT!" then shocking the dog, when he doesn't know what "sit" means in the first-place will only result in a very nervous dog who walks around on eggshells because he's never sure when he might randomly get shocked.

Unfortunately I've met a lot of noobs (idiots?) who seem to think that this is the appropriate use of an e-collar.

The only time I've seen warrent to use them is for precision training at a distance. I see them as more of a hunting-sport tool because the dogs can be working the field far away from the handler, and occasionally need to be reminded that though they are at a distance they are still expected to respond to commands. 

Of course, any correction method can be abused in the hands of someone who doesn't know anything about the theory behind the collar, or expects some "magic device" that will instantly transform their dog into the ideal, obedient companion without them actually having to put in the time and effort to train their dog.

Shasta summed up my opinions with: "it really is the fool not the tool."

A dog can forget something pleasant, but it never forgets something it doesn't like , and they can quickly figure out where this unpleasant thing is really coming from.  

Proper training for trainer's should be manditory.

Every trainer hoping to use e-collar or similar device's should put one on and see first hand what it's like.   I have and its a real eye opener.

E-collars can absolutly be used as a positive re-enforcement. A low stim bump can be used the exact same way as a clicker.

AS for Sit Means Sit. It is a system (and a franchise business) so yes you need to be instructed in it, and no you do not get it for free. I have seen many dogs trained in the system. My opinion is that it is an "educated compuisive" style. I have not seen alot of what most would call "positive" re-enforcement but it is not stictly compulsion either. The dog is taught the behaviour through the use of the collar. You can compare it to useing a leash to guide a dog into position. The dog learns right and wrong through the collar. Not unfair at all. Like the methode or not, when it comes to OB and direction, dogs trained this way are on point. I used to compete against Fred Hassen back in the day. Everyone made fun of him because he dressed like a slob and drove an old piece of shit van with "Sit Means Sit" spray painted on the side.........

Guess who's laughing now?

As for using the stim on yourself as a guage, for the most part, dogs have a much higher sensitivity to electrical stimuli than humans do. Today's progressive trainers (in whatever dicipline) train dogs in drive. So think about it this way, if you are deeply encompassed in a particular task; esp one you really enjoy, are you as in-tune to outside stimulus? We men often fail to hear our wives and girlfriends when watching a good ball game. I have a woman friend at work who is getting married soon. When she is talking about her wedding with her girlfriends, she doesn't hear a word I say. The other day I hit her in the head with a paper ball and she didn't even notice.

 what would hurt worse, getting punched in the nose during a real fight, or tough sparring match when your energy and adrenaline is up and you are expecting to be hit, or if you stand there and talk about getting hit, while watching the guy wind up? You cannot use an e-collar stimulus on yourself at a dead calm, with no other outside stimulus, to compare or attempt to guage how your dog feels it while in training.

Anyone in this day and age who does not understand the benifits and absolute validity of e-collar training is simply way behind the times, completely self-involved in their own sense of "morality" , or very un-educated in dog training.

 "E-collars can absolutly be used as a positive re-enforcement. A low stim bump can be used the exact same way as a clicker."

Okay, I have to ask, what does a "low stim bump" mean to the dog?  What is it telling him is about to happen?

You can use it to mark the behaviour. Just like a clicker.

Fido sit......dogs sits.......click or bump....... reward.

 Is the stim bumb also used as a precursor to a correction? And if so, how does the dog know what's coming?

I have never done it that way. Once the behaviour is learned, failer to perform either brings no reward, or a correction.

I guess you could do it if you added a voice marker of "yes" or "no" the stim marks the behaviour;  the yes brings a reward and no a correction, but to me that is adding an extra marker that is not necissary, does not make it as clear, and gives the dog more chance to ignore the command.