...price of a working dog, got me thinking - Page 3

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4pack

by 4pack on 02 April 2008 - 20:04

Personally I'd rather take a chance on a pup and know how I raised it, than buy a dog from someone else who I have no idea what foundation they put on or what problems we will have to work out. The only value I see in a older dog is the health clearances are done. Is a clean BOH worth missing out on 12-24 months of my dogs upbringing? No, not in my opinion but I like pups and I like raising them. Everybody has their own reasons and motivating factors.

Picking pups doesn't worry me much. Maybe I have a knack for it but I have never been disaponted  in a dog I have picked out, be it a pet or working prospect. I don't understand those who can't see a good prospect by 12 months. I guess those are the people who don't start working their dogs until physical maturity? I dunno about you guys but I have a pretty good idea about a pups potential by 3 months of age. You can see nerve, grips, and how well they handle stress at 6 weeks old. If nothing sets them back by 12 weeks, there is your dog!

As I see it, the dog has the easiest job out on the field. Stay strong, a convincing bark and a nice grip. The rest is up to the trainer to put the points on in OB. There is no dog that can't learn. If your dog isn't learning it right, you probably aren't teaching it right. Don't blame the dog for the handlers/trainers shortcomings.


by wscott00 on 02 April 2008 - 21:04

i think its great to raise a pup and work w/ what you have.  but IMO all dogs are not created equal and you can really start to tell around 8mo.  schutzhund is my fortress of solitude, a lot like supermans fortress of Ice in the north pole.  i try not to think about work, wife, etc... when im training.  so if im gonna pay good money for a dog, i want the kind og dog i can enjoy and do well w/.  when a dog shows that he wont make the cut, ive gotta get rid of him. so i cant justify paying $3k for a puppy knowing there is a 50% chance he wont work out. 

also what i consider  good someone else may not like, so w/ a pup you either take a chance or take the breeders word for it.  versus actually testing young dog and seeing a better picture.  I find it really hard to see how people are able to say this is the dog i will compete are high level w/, before the pup has biten a sleeve,  or had a prelim done...

 


4pack

by 4pack on 02 April 2008 - 22:04

"I find it really hard to see how people are able to say this is the dog i will compete are high level w/, before the pup has biten a sleeve,  or had a prelim done..."
 

Grips are genetic, easy enough to find a pup with super grips. You can test pups grips as soon as they are old enough to bite. I am 2 for 2 there. Prelims before you compete? Why? If you are only going to compete you don't need a dog free of HD. I think numerous people have said they have had HD dogs that never showed signs and competed to age 7 or so. If the dog isn't limping, keep working him. Sounds like someone else I know, "looking" for reasons to fail a dog.


by wscott00 on 02 April 2008 - 23:04

no not looking for a reason to fail a dog, i  know what type of dog i like.  why should i keep training a dog i dont like.

true you can find a pup w/ a genitic full grip at 10 wks.  but its a bit harder to find the pup w/ a nice grip, awesom ball drive, can handle the stress on the track etc... im not sure it matters how you look at it, a young dog is less risk.  my goal is to find a dog that is capable of competeing on the highest level.  and unfortunatly i dont know exactly what that dog look likes yet.

i couldnt point to a "top sport" dog if it was right in front of me........


darylehret

by darylehret on 03 April 2008 - 00:04

What in life isn't a gamble, by some degree?  Even a young adult is no guarantee, right?  Some pups are less a gamble than others, it's not as simple as flipping a coin for a 50/50 chance.  Put the odds in your favor.  Some breeders you can count on more than others, and I'd rather take a pup anyday from Tiekerhook (and others), before a greendog from a majority of brokers.

"i couldnt point to a "top sport" dog if it was right in front of me........"

I find it really hard to believe that statement, if you have any talent as a trainer, but then, I can identify great potential in a pup with good accuracy, but wouldn't expect to stand on a podium in my lifetime.


by Alabamak9 on 03 April 2008 - 00:04

Good post Sue and Walter... Sue green dogs are a ton of work as well no matter how natural they are the entire sport of schutzhund still amazes me every time I see a trial it is exciting to me. I dont know if I would ever get tried of watching the great dogs and trainers on the field. I do love the breed and seeing all the dogs no matter what kennel they came from and who is on the field with them it is a wonderful sport.

Marlene


by wscott00 on 03 April 2008 - 00:04

dayrle-

why would you expect to be on a podium?

let me tell you what top sport means to me.  it is a dog that is capable of consistantly placing in the top 10 at national events.  not scoring 280 at my club trial then scoring 260 at a national event. to me that is not being competitive.  Ive shown in 7 regional and national events, and not once did i stand a chance in hell of winning.

after showing several times at that level i started understand the amount of training, drive, nerve, etc... needed to score 285.  as trial approaches there is more and more demand for perfection, the corrections may be come harder, but there may be a thousand small corrections.  which is stress and more stress on th dog.

So after all my travels and trials ive not scored 280, ive not consistantly been in the top 10. so based on those facts i can honestly say i dont know what type of dog can win.  because i havent won.  IMO for me to look at a dog and say this dog can win, is a lot me saying since i go camping a few times a year im quaified to tell you how to climb mount everest.  I can say which has potential but thats about it....


darylehret

by darylehret on 03 April 2008 - 02:04

I was saying I wouldn't expect to find myself on the podium.  Quite frankly, I lack the experience or natural talent as a trainer in sport, and to excel to the level you're talking about, and do it consistently, is something I feel I could only imagine.  Partly, because I'm not commited to the belief that the end-all measure for the breed is accurately reflected in sport.  So, my heart just isn't "into it", so to speak.  There are other things that give me greater inspiration, breeder related.  My wife loves it, is better at it, and is more competitive than I am.  I dislike schutzhund tracking, and I'm not crazy about schutzhund obedience either, so my greater interest is in protectionwork (at least, in schutzhund).  "Real life" scenarios do interest me, even "real life" obstactle courses or more realistic tracking.  I'm just not comfortable with ritualistic excercises and obvious superficial pretense that I feel the sport hinges on.

But I dabble in schutzhund anyhow, because I'm still learning much from it.  I would however expect that a dog that can consistently perform well in "top sport" is going to be the kind of dog that performs just as well in off-field less-than-official training excercises with whatever you throw at it, and what I want is probably close to what you would want too.  If you can get a 280 at your club what would score 260 at the nationals, maybe your club should "raise the bar" in standard practice, and perhaps work on less conventional aspects as well.  You say you're not fond of larger clubs, but it couldn't hurt to pay a visit to spectate, see what improvements can be made, new ideas, etc.


by Bob McKown on 03 April 2008 - 02:04

Wscott:

                At what point is that the  weakness of the dog  to handle the pressure or is it the handler unable to handle the pressure that tranfer to the dog? that costs that 20 points.  


by eldocea on 03 April 2008 - 04:04

Hi,

 

My name is Mike ,I agree with what you said,I think it is better to start working with a puppy.The breeding problem is that the people they want to become rich over night,and they do not think about the quality.So if you breed a lot of dumb dogs you will have a lot of dumb puppies.I am breeding in Costa Rica and I will have great working line pups in May, if you know good trainers please let me know .I am not breeding to make money I am just loving German Shepherds and I treat my dogs better than some people treat their kids,they are my family.I have a partner local trainer and I can also start training the puppies professionally.

Email: eldocea@conceptosartisticos.com






 


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