Active vs Silent guard - Page 3

   I personally  like the stear and hold instead of the bark and hold. the dog can engage quicker on a perp. if thery are not bouncing around. i also teach my dogs to first locate and bark then after the intial find has been established the dog is not to do anymore bark and hold routine just engage on aggression or escape. That goes for even in exercises for this training.

The first find bark and announce and if we do 10 escapes each out is to be followed up buy a hold no bark. you can see the intentiveness with the dog to action clearer then a bark and hold.

But i dont compete in sport we use these dogs trained this with for security and departmental purposes

 I,ve got a jumper, He is in your face more then on the ground but never touch,s the sleeve in the bark and hold.we are currently working on keeping him on the ground for the re attack after drives. but it is hard for him to contain him self, and yes i attest that it is harder to get the grip if the helper is not concerned about the timing of the bite. But i also think when i see a dog do the silent guard what are they trying to work around...this is why it,s called training...God i love dogs... to each his own I like the active Guard. I think the active guard is probably used more for building intensity or dealing with another problem... just my opinion.   

Again, I think it is about the dog's strengths. Some dogs on the silent out should be platzed. These dogs often when sitting can't refrain from the dirtiness consistently. But, you also must factor in the strength of the dog's nerve. The further the submissive position by the dog(platz is more submissive than sit), the stronger the dog needs to be to give that intensity that makes the silent guard from down convincing. I have seen some really hard dogs that do well with out/platz and other dogs that sit is all you need. Now keep in mind I am talking about sport. I think Molly is onpoint in its about the dog and quality training and matching the dog with it strengths rather than making the dog be what WE what the dog to be when an alternate way could provide better quality in the exercise.

You Are Correct that is why we train. i like the active grd but a lot of helpers cant handle a dog in there face. That is True

On one hand would you think  of running from a dog that is jumping in your face. but on the technical side it leaves a moment for error to re-engage and direct when they are up in the air. if the perp. decides to run.

My male when he does the silent guard will either step on your foot or keep his head in your crotch so he can feel you move before you actually move. and to be honest there is no training for that. Thats thinking on there own 

Steve Simpkins

This is interesting stuff..

My bitch was taught the out/platz and for her it was the wrong choice (I got a lot of grief from more experienced folks in the sport)..  She wanted to stay active..  So we're now having to re train her..  She is a dog that wants to bounce and be in your face..  Her brother is the same way..  I believe some of that is genetic (the bouncing) ...  but also in her- she was pushed forward to quickly and some of the steps were missed in training..  Being a novice you don't see or even understand some of the logistics..  until you move on and train with others..

I should proof read better before I post, I ment to say I beleive the silent gaurd is used to build intensity and deal with training issues more then the active. just my opinion.

Active guard.

I hate the deterioration of SchH into a sport for points.  It can still be utilized as a breed test, and that is one of my primary reasons for participating in it.  Therefore, active guard is my choice because it shows more about the dog.  For seeing the dog's true heart, his ability to switch from one drive to another, and to show true aggression toward the helper (which is what I want to see), an active guard is the way to go. 

All but one of my dogs are taught the active guard.  The one who does a silent guard does so because he has a partially collapsed trachea that makes barking difficult.  At my last SchH1 this past fall, as I was walking up to my dog to pick her up after the out, and she's standing on her hind legs barking in the helper's face, the judge looked over to me and commented "now THAT'S a convincing guard!" 

Yes, a silent guard is more of a sure thing in terms of points.  And many dog's don't have the strength or aggression to do an active guard, so a silent guard is a good way to cover up that weakness in the dog.  But I'd rather lose a point or two for incidental contact with the helper during an active guard, and have the judge, helper and crowd be wowed with the strength my dog exhibits.  And many judges, those who still appreciate a truly strong dog, will miraculously have something in their eye that made them miss those one or two bumps, and reward the strong guard with full points.

IMO a dog who doesn't have strength and aggression enough to do a convincing active "barking" guard, will also not have a convincing silent guard.  There is an intense silent guard, where there is no doubt the dog is serious - and then there is one that is not intense.  Active guards where the dog is jumping up in the helpers' face, dancing around, leaping in the air, is IMO NOT convincing.  It is "play guarding" - asking for the game to start.  There have been a few "barking in the face" guarding dogs that have convinced me, but very few. Most are in play-drive and not impressive to me.  I like a "power-bark" where the dog is looking straight into the helpers' eyes and not looking away for anything - if they are barking, then the front feet are hitting the ground hard, the body is in tight control and all of the energy of the dog is directed toward the body of the helper (not toward the sleeve, and also not to the face).  This is the same whether it is silent or active.  No jumping or dancing around in front of the helper - to me that is not impressive.  Shows drive and spirit but not aggression.  Many "sporty" dogs do this and yes they get full points, but it's not for me.  I like a powerful dog that is under control - if they lose points because they are too strong to easily be controlled, all the better (for breeding purposes, not for points).

I also do not like the silent down - to me this is a way to "hide" or control a dog with a serious problem of bothering the helper, regripping the sleeve or - possibly - leaving the helper (or jumping around, spinning, running around the helper, etc).  I don't like it and wouldn't train it, since I wouldn't own a dog that required it to "get the points".

molly

<<I also do not like the silent down - to me this is a way to "hide" or control a dog with a serious problem of bothering the helper, regripping the sleeve or - possibly - leaving the helper (or jumping around, spinning, running around the helper, etc). >>

Couldn't the same be said about a dog that is taught the silent sit?  I think it can go both ways, can't it?

AgarPhranicniStraze1,

Here is your dog doing the Bark and hold in the blind , As you can see he will bounce up n down in the helpers face , If you are working him now and you are not seeing this out of him , you might want to try Different  way of working and training him if this is somthing that you like to see out of the bark and hold . I dont know how he is out in the open away from the blind but you may try some Different  things to bring out the best in your dog . Also just so you know he is NOT SVV1 that is ( Slovak) He did his ZVV1 in the Czech Rep. So that would make him ZVV1, PS why is your Addy ( AgarPhranicniStraze1) when your dogs Name is Agar Zdekra , http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/484385.html 

This is why I ask ( this is the REAL Agar z Pohranicni Straze http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/392859.html

Here is the link to all the pictures I could find of him http://www.zdekra.cz/NO/agar.htm