Who breeds German Showlines with NO ROACH???? - Page 3

Ditto, GoldenElk!

Answer is, lot's of them.  One can find a wide variance of back confirmation in any litter, from too much length, to saggy back, to "bump-back", to banana (roach) back to dip behind the withers back, to rump-rollup right before the pelvis back with steep croup, etc., etc.  Of course close line breeding can diminish the variability is done expertly but can ceate additional health risjks long term in the puppies due to limiting heterozygosity of the immunity controlling genes.

The key is either buying an older puppy 6 to 16 months old (preferably 16 months old)  that is fully vetted (hip and elbow xrays, screened with thyroid test, TLI to rule out EPI, tests to rule out von Willdebrands or free bleeding, barium swallow xray for esophagul disorders, etc., etc.) or having a very experienced breeder with a proven show win record help you select the puppy (no matter what age you buy it at).  There is no substitute for "proven" experience.

Be forewarned that breeders often either want to sell off their puppies first which have serious back faults and keep back the best for themselves (sometimes to train and title and then sell, as a long term investment), or alternatively  set the selling price substantially higher to reflect "pick of the litter" or excellent confirmation status.  But mistakes can happen in selection by breeeders and occasionally he "ugly puppy of the litter" turns out to develop quite differently than expected and becomes a top show winner.  It has happened.

Sometimes you can buy a GSD puppy at a reasonable price that has good all around confirmation and which is not a superstar and will never be a top confirmation winner.  But many of these GSDs make very attractive, family pets that can be titled and will later obtain SG and V ratings in the middle of the pack.  For most this is quite desirable. The key here is learn as much about the standard as you can, get help from a breed expert, minimize your risks with comprehensive vetting (that you expect to pay for in advance) and use a first right of refusal contract.  And last it is a good idea if possible to buy a puppy out of a bitch with geat joints, good joint producing record, and from lines with longevity, and same for the sire too.  Longevity seems to be genetic just like every other trait.

Ahhh yes, "fearbiter". I forgot about that term.

I thought an example of a dog I found to be moderate would help as a visual, this is from one of the ads :http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/classifieds/41533.html

GoldenElk - in your earlier post I really liked the black and white - who was that?  I liked his back - but also I liked his neck set - I think that alot of the dogs you see in Sieger shows now have a neck that is set too low an is a midge too short (to use the horsey term O.o)

~Cate

Cate the site that I found the picture on just listed him as an example of a 1950's Sieger, but the following site has an excellent illustration of the gradual shift in type up to the present. It lists Siegers from 1899 - 2005. Lots of beautiful older type dogs to view. http://www.angesgardiens.ca/ANG/Bundessieger%20list.htm

GE, according to this site, here, it's a 1960's era dog, and the cars in the background are obviously American, NOT German. My guess is that's Bodo vom Lierburg we're looking at: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/250.html

Go to this site here, to see how the GSD has changed since then: http://www.asuperiorgsd.com/p2p.html

You will see that exact picture listed under AMERICAN dogs, but of course, he was a German import.

Sounds like the new poster Tez, is looking for the same sort of dog you are. You might want to PM him/her and exchange info.

My understanding of a roach is "Any upward curvature of the spine past the wither" Pretty cut and dry, not terribly open to opinion. Simple geometry, actually.

I would recommend the OP just do his/her homework. Find the topline you are looking for in both parents and hope you get it in your dog. Pretty simple.

Sunsilver - it is my understanding that Bodo was not appreciated in the US because everyone was gaga over Lance of Fran-Jo.  Bodo could have made a differnce to the Americans (yes I am American) but I guess they wanted something flashy and that is what they got and what took them down the extreme kangaroo dog type. 

His brother, Bernd, went on to be widely used in germany and is a very significant dog in the breed and in many many working line dog pedigrees. 

I think that the German Showline - Working line divergence started around the same time as the American showlines started changing (late 60s - early 70s) ---