Equivalent working titles? - Page 3

Ok Realcold, I'll buy a Clue and raise you a measure of Manners and Kindness.

Clew. Maybe you should look for a shepadoodle. Just a guess? I am being kind here.

How is it being kind when you are looking down your nose at those who haven't reached the pinnacle of supremacy that you have reached?  I appreciate and respect your level of knowledge in posts I have read here and just don't appreciate that you don't tolerate others their opinions - I have some hard line working dogs and will be trialing my male in 2008 - I just know that facts are what facts are and not everyone buys a GSD for Schutzhund and to believe that will ever be the case is not reality.  I have invested lots of time and money into my gsd's and you don't even know me, why do you think you do?  Why are you intolerant of others points of view?

I'd rather see a GSD titled in obedience, agility, akc tracking, SAR ceritfiied, etc., getting bred than I would some nervy pet that sits chained up in a yard all day. I've said it before and I'll say it again : Sometimes the sport world gets so caught up in themselves that they won't even respect other types of work and can't read a good dog past its scorebook, or lack thereof. I know a few K9s I'd jump at the chance to breed to or own a puppy from- many with very impressive, highline pedigrees.

tighe, thats a closed-minded statement. My UD bitch (who I cannot breed due to HD, btw) is also PP trained. And if she didn't have a bum hip, damn right I would've bred her.  She has super high drive, serious bitework, excellent structure, and I'll tell you that damn UD was much harder than my other bitch's SchH1 and koer.

Scoffing at agility? I trained a black gsd bitch puppy this summer who came from several generation of AGILITY titles parents....holy hell, whatta pistol, she would've made one heck of a schutzhund dog. Confident, drivey, energetic, I really had a blast working with her.

As someone said: you really have to look at the dog. There are dogs out there with SchH3s I wouldnt touch with a 10 foot pole. Just like I've seen some GSDs in the obedience ring that make me cringe, and I've definitely seen some videos of K9s that have no business on the street. 

The quality of a dog may or may not be measured by its titles. And one could also say quality is measured by the individual person's opinion as well. We all have certain things we like to see.  I like a dog thats kind of a pushy jerk, some see that as bad temperament. I can't stand a dog thats overly hyper, I know sport enthusiasts who would say the more energy, the better. 

That being said, I would like to point out that EVERY breed worthy GSD should be able to perform ANY AND ALL of the sports/jobs/activities listed on this thread.

Just my 2 cents.

K9MOM,WELL PUT.I answered a post the other day regarding the topic  NERVES and i tried to express certain things and it looks like nobody liked what i had to say OR perhaps they would of responded in one way or another.To me sch is a sport TODAY,NOT a breed worthy test as it should be.And its sad to see how many EGOTISTICLE,SELF CENTERED ,UNEXPERIANCED,CLOSE MINDED people that there are out there doing this in clubs.MOST with NO idea.That is why for now i chose to NOT BOTHER any longer even if it means not breeding a VERY BEAUTIFULL MALE that has experianced the PODIUM a couple times.Its too bad that unlike Germany we here in Canada (Ontario) are very limited in clubs and PROPER SKILLED OPENMINDED TRAINERS.

I agree with some of what 4pack said mostly about taking our own measure of a dog tho I don't think that necessarily means putting it thru "my own battery of tests " in part because a lot of owners would tell you take a flying leap. I find it useful to try and see the dog in a variety of venues - not just it's home field or own house. I would also take the opinion of a few trusted friends who had seen the dog work. I differ w/ 4pack re the PSA dogs mostly because the ones I have seen have been Sch wannabes that couldn't make the cut or the owner didn't want to bother w/ the obedience.

I've seen 3 police dogs I'd breed to in a minute - problem is brokered dogs ergo no papers. Argh!

Re SAR a bit more problematic want to know if the dog is a "paper" dog or what his actual finds and work are. Some are outstanding workers and definetely should be in the gene pool and Ravenwalker - gotta study that breed history - "I say no because the k9 programs and SAR programs where not developed with breeding in mind."  Well Schutzhund was also designed to show that GSD would be good for police work  and if you want to get all rigid then I could say the original breed test was herding you need to do that ( true obedience in drive). Mystere try it before you condemn it out of hand - if you think it's a piece of cake you are dead wrong.

Probably can guess, I'm big yes to herding dogs and not just HGH. Von Stephanitiz described a number of herding working styles in the German dogs used to create the breed and all those "styles" persist today in our lines. So a dog that wualifies in AHBA or AKC or on a BC or ASCA course is perfectly fine w/ me tho once again I want to see the work. There are what I call robot dogs that can be directed footstep to footstep and complete a course but that is not true herding ability tho the obedience can be a useful trait.

Mystere once again wrong re service dogs. To quote you "Service dog? HELL, NO!!  Those are the dogs in the  gsd litter that NO ONE wanted for schutzhund, because of a lack of drive, nerve, ability, etc" Those that do this are a diservice to the breed and the service dog user. A service dog has to be exceptionally clearheaded, dicrimianting, the drive to work long hours in often less than perfect conditions and do it day in and day out and not get bored or petulant.

Mystere and Animaules - Have you forgotten that the very first guide dog Buddy in the US was a GSD and we had a lock on that for decades. Guide dogs started w/ GSds in Germany http://www.muhlenberg.edu/studorgs/companion/ccfaqhistory.html  - you might note that this was while the Capt was alive.

For a modern day success story check out Fidelco Guide Dog School. They were bring in DDR dogs long before any of you even knew what a DDR dog was.

For my own personal example meet Remy  http://www.sontausen.allk-9.com/remy.htm from KNVP lines - serious AND clearheaded AND discrimating. Knows the difference between her jobs the only adjustment made is on her tracking for schutzhund she essentially free tracks AND retrieves the articles back to me since as a service dog she retrieves for me. "Lack of drive , nerve, ability" - not this service dog - talk to anyone in No Cal and they'll tell you.

Tighe - have YOU ever put a CDX on a dog. How about a UD or UDX or even a UDT. T= tracking. As to tracking AKC has 4 levels much longer and some of them ( versatility tracking wh/ is urban tracking) much more difficult than schutzhund tracking. UDs require scent discrimination, directed jumping and retrieves and signal exercises ( no hollering louder and louder to make the dog obey). How about an OTCH - What do you think the difficulty level is on that?  And as pointed out most AKC titles require 3x trialing sucessfully and 3 different judges and I've yet to meet an AKC obedience judge who thought it was his/her job to give out gifts. AKC uses a fairly harsh negative scoring method in most of its perfomance sports. For example in herding the dog can complete the course ( get the job done wh/ is the object of the exercise) but not pass because it lost too many points.

Suggestion to all who quickly dismiss other venues and other tests - if they're such a piece of cake why does you dog not have that title after its name? You ought try some. You and your dog actually might have some fun and it might teach you more than you know now about training dogs and dogs' drive nerves and ability.

Domenic, K9-mom, You two are preaching to the choir when it comes to me. I have tried to make these points many times. After a while you just sigh and shake your head.

Lexie and i got the CDX title in 3 consecutive shows, I could not continue on with the UD because she has health issues, and the dog is more important than the title. I was afraid to mention this because most Sch people think that it's a joke, and means nothing. What it meant to me is bonding,  having fun,  and doing SOMETHING with the dog so that it uses it's brain.

Training is not easy. It takes WORK,WORK, WORK.. whatever road is chosen. AKC Obedience  or Schutzhund. No shortcuts.

I wanted to do Schutzhund with her, but the Clubs around my area (NOT MANY), are more cliques than clubs, and have a MY DOG IS BETTER THAN YOUR DOG ATTITUDE IF NOT FROM WORKING LINES,  or YOU DON'T BREED? WHO AND WHAT ARE YOU AND WHAT DO YOU KNOW?  I am not for that, and do not want any part of cliques.

Dawn