Made in USA ??? - Page 3

Guess it is like saying I drive a car (comparable to "dog"), it is a Toyoto (comparable to "GSD"), made in Japan (comparable to where your dog was born).  Actualy I drive all Fords, but I am trying to make a point.

Some things just need to be explained in more detail than just a one or two word description.

ie:  I am a Native Indian.

Where was I born?

Could be Native American Indian.  Could be from India.  Could have been born in England, Brazil or anywhere.

A close friend of mine, who is deceased, was born in Hungary of Ukrainian parents, but raised in Brazil until age six, and diead an American citizen.  Would saying he was Hungarian be correct?  Ukranian?  American?  A heinz 57?

He was a man.  All of these dogs we discuss are German Shepherd Dogs.  No matter the color, size, place of birth or character or abilities.  Just like I am a human, better than some and not as good as some.

Just say that your GSD has recent ancestry from Germany and has a different look than GSD lines that have been here for a lot of generations.  It is not exactly correct because there are lines that have been here for many generations and have the same look, but how much explanation does one need to understand tht your dog is a little different from the guys GSD next door.

We as owners are proud and pleased to talk about our "guys" and "gals", but most people who ask about there different look, really don't give a rats buttocks anyway.  They are just mildly curious and will care less after they leave your presence.  If they are coming to buy a puppy and you want to go into detail, then fine.  But they will probably not be someone you want one of your pups to really go to anyway, if they don't already know the difference.

By the way.  Was Hitler German?  He was born in Austria if I remember correctly.

Geez - way off topic.

In the German showring we give out a trophy for "American Bred" at the Sieger Shows.  The topic is not about what looks American Bred ... but who should receive the trophy for the "Highest Placing American Bred".

Can a dog bred in Germany be "American Bred"?  Or a Dog Bred in America? 

vonwaldhimmel, that is kinda the point of my question.  I found it very odd that a dog could be bred in Germany from German bred dogs, then get whisked to US soil just in time to drop puppies.  And presto chango... "American Bred Dog".

I just wanted to make sure I was correctly understanding the situation. 

The consensus appears to be that if the puppy is born on US soil, then it qualifies as "American Bred Dog".  My personal opinion is that this does nothing to encourage or reward excellent breeding programs in the US that are developing their own bloodlines and breeding stock. 

Pity.  Well, thanks for the clarification, folks.

Ya'll are confusing "bred" with whelped.  Bred has nothing to do with it.  It is where born (whelped).

On point enough?

This is what doesn't sit well with me. Some of you seem to think unless your 2 breeding dogs are born in the US, your litter doesnt qualify as American bred.  My bitch came in from Germany when she was 8 weeks old. I raised her in the US,  titled her in the US, showed her in the US, and bred her in the US, to stud dogs that stand here in the US.  Is that not American enough?

No one has brought up that the CHOICE of brood bitch and the CHOICE of stud dog was made by the American breeder themselves!  When you choose the dogs and orchestrate the breeding, when YOU create that pedigree, in my opinion that is solely your creation as a breeder no matter what side of the pond the dog came from.

And if a breeder has developed several generation of their own outstanding dogs (Bullinger would be a great example) then the real reward is being respected by others, and a trophy is worth very little in  comparison. 

"I consider Pfeffer von Bern... an American-type GSD"...He won sieger and defeated the sable dog Odin Bussecker Schloss (even if they were half brothers...)

Pfeffer AND Odin were German-bred dogs, period.  They were TYPICAL of a good dog then (and SHOULD BE NOW).

'And He won this  "out of U.S. pressure..."'

????

"in a country that was just devastated by WW2 and trying to get back on their feet by selling their dogs..."

Pfeffer and Odin were whelped in 1934, well before WWII started.  Pfeffer won Sieger in '37, and was imported then as well as Odin; Pfeffer also was Grand Victor 2x  How this has to do with desparate Germans trying to get back on their feet from war devastation I don't know; maybe you mean the massive depression they suffered since WWI's aftermath of the Versailles Treaty and were only just getting out of.  But I really doubt it.  Imports (i.e., integral to the top American breeding programs) were common to America before then and well after into the '60s.

"not knowing the dogs are multiplying and changing to a direction that does not heed authority from their motherland... "

Again, really doesn't apply in the '30s.  Even if they didn't worry about SV restrictions (and they are a bit tight), they were still heavy on using imports up until the '60s.  No true rift in conformation occurred until definitely the late '60s and in the '70s (as happened apparently with German "types" too).  '60s ruins all again!

'Ya'll are confusing "bred" with whelped.  Bred has nothing to do with it.  It is where born (whelped).'

No, I think that is standard terminology, and "bred" is easier to say/write out than "whelped".  This is exactly what happens in racing.  Horses are said to be "KY-bred", but all it means is NOT the actual "breeding" (mating), but where the foal was "dropped" (foaled).  This 1 was foaled in KY, not necessarily "bred" there.  Likewise, a horse English-vocabulary "bred" in KY might have his mama traveling when she foaled him, hence, even if it was just a quick trip through Nebraska, if he dropped there, he is now "NE-bred" (yes, this really happened with a famous horse).  Ridiculous, if you ask me, for exactly that reason!  But them's the rules.

Of course, in straight English, all this is wrong; "bred" means "mated", not whelped or foaled.  But it seems to flow nicer on the tongue and only takes 4 letters, so I guess people way back decided they liked it better that way.

"Herpes existed in the begining but that doesnt mean everyone should strive to get it ."

Would be better to avoid comparing a devastating disease to a meaningless color scheme.

"Types are all off shoots from the standard, the breed standard you either breed to it or you don,t ."

Tell that to the SV.  Who have allowed 2 different types to flourish as "good" in the show ring.  And for 1 of them at least, seem to think Greyhound backs are good for trotting, though they were made for galloping or "launch" (from a standing start to full speed).  Never mind the heavy bones and huge heads of "showlines", more like heavy-handed bearish Rottweilers than the lithe SHEEP-HERDING animals they should be.

"Every one can have there preferences I prefer a smaller compact shepherd"

Good for you.  Not quite the type the SV prefers in the "show" division.

"I don,t believe the show line dog with long backs and tucked rear hock can run all day with a flock or move quickly to aprehend so i won,t breed to that ideal."

Neither do I.  Nor do I believe roach-backs with heavy hanging heads allow serious all-day trotting, although you have running tests to supposedly prove this.  I think if you hitched these guys to a sulky and had trotting races of a mile or more, before long not only the elite American, but the elite German shows would drop out to German working and the much-reviled "pet" "BYB" GS.

"But there are those that feel that is the type they want to see to all those who breed they should ask this of them selfs"

That goes for the SV-approved type, too.  They have all diverged greatly from what the dog once was, even on show circuits.

the Ol'Line Rebel...

Wheew... that was an eye-opener, you've delivered... i apologize for my GSD history ( probably why i didn't do well at school... i lack the accuracy.)  And though the GSD standard should be metrically accurate upto centimeters... The TYPEs as we call it... varies with individual preference... I've read the S.V. magistrate is updating their ranks and you wont place VA unless you prove yourself worthy in the protection phase... Hoping any of the magistrates could read your remarks...the Ol'Line Rebel... they should learn a lot  from you... like i did today...

Well, thank you for your generous compliments; you're way too flattering.  ;-)  I'm just a pet person, per se.  I'm interested but really just a "book" person.  I watch and read (Fred Lanting is a gem on alot of this stuff).  All you guys do would be too exhausting for me (never mind just plain too much time)!  But that's why I made the "forest for the trees" comments before; sometimes, it's better NOT to be so heavily involved to see what's really going on; when you're in too deep sometimes you bicker over details or get myopic about 1 thing when the whole project is falling down.  Heck, the American "all-breed" is definitely better than the American "specialty" show dog, overall (you will see overlaps, but mostly 1 does not stray into the other ring) - but of course, the "really serious GS people" think they know so much better than someone who also judges Pekingnese and Pointers.

BTW, to help lessen my ignorance, is there any good website or book (whatever) about how all the SV operates - definitely about its trials and shows?  I only gleaned some semblance of what they do over the years.  I'd like to know details of how shows are run, what you must do, etc.  Also more about the various gradings - not just hips, but breeding qualification determinations, etc.  I tried on the SV site once but was overwhelmed.  Really would be nice if someone had a good, concise synopsis of all that happens.