HERDING PEOPLE!!! - Page 3

Actually Kathy a correct dog will use the power necessary without any input from the handler.  Your dog should feel and read the sheep on his own.  If the dog has been allowed to develop correctly, he will use what is needed way before you can direct him.  He has instinct, you don;t.  You can't tell him fast enough.  However this takes hours and hours on stock without direction from a trainer, allowing the dog to learn to feel the pressure of the stock.  Most people are in too much of a hurry to get titles to take that time.  Or they do not have the opportunity to just let their dogs work sheep.  ALl of my good ones developed that sense of pressure. Luther won the first HGH having only been on two hundred sheep for 20 minutes the week before.  Two weeks later he was herding victor on a flock of twenty barbs that hadn't been tended.  Jazz could work two hundred at Ulf's and then go demo C course on twenty light hair sheep that had never been tended.   Even Easy works Ellen's sheep differently from ours.  Ours are much heavier and will ram a dog that is not atttentive. Easy gets a real thrill out of Ellen;s flock as they move off of her without a whole lot of effort, so she often starts to play to just see how much she can get them to jump.  They all worked new-born lambs very differently as well.  That is what  is so amazing about this work, the dog does it without input from the handler.  However most people want to control the situation too much. 

susan

Well, I guess that's it for me, trying to control things too much and thinking about things too much, in particular when trialing.   My dogs know what they are doing!  However that being said, in training I do get a real kick out of watching my dogs patrol in the graze without any direction from me.

What fun.

Again, I apologize for posting my pics side by side.  It really messes up the rest of the posts, doesn't it!!

While I wish I was out herding today, instead we had a very good morning of TRACKING!!  My 8 month old did

excellent this morning.  I love good training days........

Rozoan

Emt, I love herding and would not like to discourage anyone from  participating but I am concerned about some of your statements.

On your post trying to give you dog away you stated that he had 1. killed sheep and 2. was not good with other large dogs. Does the "herding lady" you're going off to know these facts? Sheep are not toys for our dogs to play with and a good livestock manager would not willingly subject her stock to risk of their life. I realize that there can be many variables to a situation and perhaps your instructor being fully informed feels the sitauation can be controleld safely and your dog deserves a chance to determine his true ability however please please make sure she does know his past behavior.

I was part of the cadre that got GSDs back into the herding world and it was and still often is difficult to find stock owners/herding instructors who will work with our breed because of the perception of them as prey monsters. I can not tell you the number of times that I was told ( usually by a BC person) that the only good way to look at a GSD is down the barrel of a shotgun. We do have to recognize that not every GSD has herding ability or talent. My current girl has much too much prey drive and as much as I love herding I will not even attempt to do it with her. Does that mean she is unmanageable around stock? No I have used her either on leash or tied to a fence on a sit or down as a blockade while moving stock and she has been required to maintain a platz ( tied down for safety) while I'm vetting sheep 10-30 feet away with all the movement and noise but that is all possible because of her training and biddability.

The other concern I have is the fact that he is not good around other dogs. In the herding world there are ALWAYS other dogs around and sometimes even working at the same time as your dog ( BC, Kelpie and Cattle dog people often use an older more experienced dog to hold the stock in an open pasture while younger dogs work them. I have experienced this a number of times at clinics). If your dog is young enough the herding world may be a good exposure to help him over his dog issues but again responsibility is in order. The trainer must know his protoclivities as well as other clients who are there at the same time as you and you must be vigilant. You are a steward for our breed and whether it's dog agression or stock aggression please please do not give our breed another black eye.

I encourage you to stick with the obedience training for your dog whatever sport you choose to do with him because first and foremost your life will be easier and I also encourage you to find something that he has a natural talent for and enjoys whether it be herding or schutzhund or tracking or agility etc.

EMTTGT06, I'm in northern Illinois close to the Wisconsin border. 

Thanks

Judy

VKFGSD:  I understand your concern, and yes the trainer knows all about his past.  She feels our biggest problem to conquer wll be his stance on other large dogs.  She doesn't feel the other was a problem.  When he killed the sheep he was unsupervised, he'd gotten loose!  She wants his obedience fine tuned and for him to mature a little more.  She feels everything will be okay, but only time will tell. 

JudyK:  Don't know if you're familiar with Harvard, IL , but we'll be up there next weekend picking our female pup up!

Dogs that kill sheep are not at all necessarily bad herding dogs.  Often there are circumstances that create the situation.  If the dog killed the stock with no human present, it is certainly not something to hold against the dog.  As far as a dog having too much prey drive, most GSDs are forced to try to play at being either a BC or an Aussie and forced onto the A, B or AHBA courses.  None of which are particularly good for a dog that was bred for tending.  Our dogs by their nature have very high prey drive...more than any other herding breed.  That is what makes them work correctly and efficiently as a living fence.  Correct drive in this breed is demonstrated by a very active, highly driven dog that controls the sheep with a full-mouth, non-injurous (most of the time) grip in places that make Aussie and BC people cringe.  Our dogs genetics tell them to grip high up on the back of the neck, high up on the ribs or high up on the hind leg.  Gripping noses or lower limbs is useless in  a tending dog as the sheep then can't walk nor can they forage well.  Sadly the dogs that are successful in these ridiculous trial situations are not correct in drive or independence.  Rather than quit with your correctly high prey drive GSD find a trainer who truly understands the breed and will help you develop him into a tending dog.   GSDs are not Shelties, BCs, Corgis, Aussies, Beardies or Collies. Trying to force the square peg into the round hole will result in frustration, then the dog either starts getting quite aggressive with the sheep or shuts down completely. The dog never reaches its true potential.

Susan

EMTTGY06.  I train in Harvard.  Where are you picking up your pup?

Judy

Judy, Our pup is at  Tri Star with Steve, Dave, & Kathy.  It's kind of funny, but I've never spoke to Dave or Kathy and our pup has been there for 6 weeks! lol  Steve is tremendous!  A very straight forward guy that tells you how it is. We will be picking up our pup and dropping her littermate sister off!  I'm so exicited to get Attia back home!