DDR breeding...want opinions? - Page 3

I'm sorry, I made a mistake. When Arko was imported here in 2005 his ZW rating was a 77. I got out my paperwork and information on Arko and Peddy and Arko's rating is a 77. So Daryl, where did you get your information and when did Arko's rating change?

These are public documents and records.  If you go to the SV website and click on ZW, you will find that the numbers for all these dogs are correct.  Why they change has to do with what is produced, not just by the dog itself but by parents, litter mates and progeny thereof.  If there is anything else involved, I am not aware, but I am sure that there are others that do know.

Constance Krebs, RN

Spartanville Shepherds

www.spartanville.com

ZW's are re-calculated every three months (last was 31DEC'07), and the results produced from a dog's parents or siblings will affect their scores, regardless if they've produced anything themselves.  HD is a polygenic (many-genes) trait, and statistical averaging helps identify portions of the genes that contribute to the condition.  It's not perfect, and not necessarily accurate portrayal of the genetics carried by the producer.  Every time a dog produces A1 hips, the score will improve, -2 to the score.  Each A2/fast normal is +2, and A3/noch zugelassen is +5.  Then everything gets re-averaged up and down the bloodline.  A puppy isn't born with a "100" score, instead is assigned an average of the parent's scores.  For example, a Durbas(105) & Eicke(78) pup would at the moment have a ZW92.  A "100" score is assigned to a dog who's parents are not rated, and serves as a baseline to begin from, considered in the "fast normal/A2" range.  The purpose of this, is to improve hips in the overall breed, and the SV does not allow a breeding where the combined scores of the parents exceeds "200".  The lower the score, the more breeding options a particular dog could be matched to.

jodagirl

You mentioned this...

"BTW, I have personally seen the black under Durbas' tail. I know the Linos quite well and have been down to their place numerous times. I own a female out of Arko and Peddy Vom Grafental, Puck's littermate."

I just looked Puck vom Grafental up on the PDB and his sire is Enzo vom Grafental and his dam is Saskia vom Schaferliesel. I just wanted to make sure that we are talking about the same Puck?

 Also I took a look at Arko. He is a nice male. Nothing against him but I want to stay PURE DDR. Arko is not pure DDR. He is a nice male. I like his nice dark color.

I have taken a look at the ZW scores on Puck, Aron, Arko and Durbas. Nothing against Durbas, I am sure he is a nice male. I would be very nervous breeding to a male with a hip score that high.

I do appreciate all the information that i am getting from you all. I am doing my research NOW since I will be breeding my female towards the end of this year. I want to see all the options out there and then choose a male that I think would compliment my female.

Thank-you Connie and Daryl. I didn't know how that worked. I tried to find the SV website last night to get a better understanding of it, but I couldn't find it. Could you post that link? I would be very interested in checking that out.

JYL,

Puck and Peddy are littermates.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/433996.html

For Arko to have gone from a 77 to 83 is 6pts. difference.  If one of his parents produced n# of a1 hips, plus n# of a2 hips, those scores would negate each other.  An additional one a2 hips and two a3's would account for his 6pt. difference (12 pts. from a single parent).  For simplicity's sake, say both parents had a ZW77 to begin with, and one still was a "77", then the other would be an "89", having produced (n*a1 + n*a2 + a2 + a3 +a3).  If a sibling was more responsible than a direct parent, then the production would have to have been twice as poor to affect his score so much (a parent 12 pts., and a single sibling 24 pts.)  The "truth" could potentially be worse, as a dog that is being bred outside the SV affects the bloodline's breeding value in a positive way, by having been "taken out of the equasion".

If you look at this list of the top 1000 producers, http://www.ehretgsd.com/Best-producers-HD1-1.pdf , you'll see that as a general rule, each of these dogs has generally produced 2X to 6X more a1's than a2's (the scores that negate each other).  For a dog to "slide" 6 pts. in such a short time, the compared breeding value would be drastically unfavorable to any on this list.  Far too many a2's or a3's thrown into the average.  My point is, I think the MOVEMENT in values is probably more telling information about how a line is producing than the actual beginning assigned value.  The problem is, the SV webside doesn't track these point slides, only shows the current value, which can be found at this link, http://www.schaeferhund.de/site/index.php?id=688

Cool thanks Daryl. I don't read German that well, but I can get around the site ok. I tried entering Durbas by both his name and zwinger (Schwendenschanzen) and I didn't get any results. I don't have his SZ number. How did you get his rating to come up?

Also, I guess there's no way of telling which dogs affected another dog's rating and how, huh? That would be REALLY useful information to have.

If you put Durbas' name is the box under Hundename and hit the search button, he is the only Durbas in the data.  He comes right up.   The ZW number and his SZ number are documented.

I don't know if there is a specific way to tell who affected who, but if you do pedigree research, hip ratings are documented. Yvonne Hecht owns Win-Sis here in the USA and I can tell you that she has or can find that information.  Annie Joseph has the same on the Czech side.  It is alot of work, but well worth the time.

jyl,
I am not qualified to advise you on who to choose, but just my two cents worth. I like Puck, I have a boy that could be his double except mine has that short tail that DDR dogs often seem to have. I also appreciate Schaferliesel, solid lines.  Good luck