Titles - Have they Proven themselves when needed? - Page 3

The BS is already flying in this thread!

I have said this before and I will say it again. I would say less than 5% of all dogs have what it takes and will stop a person with a real determine to hurt you without specific training and simulated real life scenarios. If they have a sport title, I would say that would increase to 25-35%

One of my favorite police dogs failed to engage on his first deployment. This was a tough, trained police dog, that bit like an alligator. My friend asked me to do some civil work, then we worked the muzzle, then social dominance. We took him up to barely on the edge of control, then took him down a notch. Next time he was deployed, he did some serious soft tissue damage to the guys arm. I think he has had 3 more live bites and has won several police k9 competitions. Real nice dog.

Years ago, when I was just starting, the people I worked with traded a police officer a dog for one he imported from Holland with a KNPV PH1. The dog absolutely would not engage a person for real. I know this as a fact because I was doing civil work with no equipment. The dog slipped his collar and flew right by me. He was an awesome sport dog and produced some pretty good puppies as well.

I hate to burst some people's bubble but you need a real strong dog with specific training to have confidence the dog will protect you from a serious attack.

Get a real dog, 
Well said. I don't know if I would go as high as 5% on all dogs or 25-35% higher for sport dogs. Some times I think that just the pet gsd might even do better then many sport dogs. To much breeding for over the top prey drive with nothing to back it up on many. I just say this to put it into perspective. Bottum line is most do not really know their own dogs. For what ever reason most folks seem to be content in going through routines and not really studying their dogs. It's a shame cause it is such a fascinating thing to watch them in different situations and begin to see how they process. Not too many days go buy when I do not see something interresting that they do in reacting to something that gets my wheels turning. I hope this is an encouragement to dog people to watch them and learn from them. It's a never ending lesson.

I wanted to share with you something that used to be done years ago. I will not say where or anything else about it. It involved new dogs on the street. It involved getting their first bite in, ( the big one ) the one that broke down the walls and got rewarded for their new experience. It involved finding ' volunteers ' that were happy to take a bite in exchange for financial gain. This was truley old school but it was great for the new ones to get their " feet wet ". It also was the best way to prove your dog, PERIOD. It was a real confidence booster to dog and handler.
Unethical ? I can't say , except to say I would take a bite on your dog if you took a bite on mine. It would be worth it to me. My arm will heal but the other scenerios could be much worse.

Thanks for all the replies.  I guess it's just that all you hear about today is Schutzhund titles but then, you hear how it's more of a sport than an actual real assessment of the dog's mental capabilities.

I had rescued a gsd female years ago from our local rescue.  This dog had issues from the get go.  She was very timid, but a loving soul; absolutely adored children and was fine with other animals; never reacted in an aggressive, fearful or threatening way to anyone but, just had this "timid" way of walking up to you; I guess "submissive" is more the word.

Anyway, I saw this place in the phone book for canine training and decided to take my dog and see what they could tell me about her temperament. 

When I walked into the building with my dog, she was already acting weird.  She was afraid to enter with me and stuck to my leg like glue.  The guy that I was talking to had someone take her to the back to assess her.  While they were gone, he told me that he already saw many things wrong with her temperament...very weak, anti social, lacking nerve, etc, etc.  Then he proceeded to show me what he trains.  First, he brought in a pretty female doberman.  This dog was gorgeous but, very intimidating when she looked at you.  He said this dog is kid proof but, knows instinctively when to turn on the switch.  She approached me, was very friendly, blah, blah, blah.  Then, he put her in back and said that she was still more of a family dog than a "protection" dog.  Next, one of the handlers brought in a solid black german shepherd who looked like he was just as sweet as could be.  The guy told me to walk up to the handler and ask to pet his dog just like I would on the street.  I did, the dog was very accommodating.  Then, he told me to sit down.  He explained then what he was getting ready to do.  He told me he would first approach the handler and the dog thinking nice thoughts in his head; you know, "hey, how ya doin'?  Nice dog, can I pet him, etc."; the dog reacted fine; no different from when I approached.  Then, he told me, he wasn't going to change anything about how he approached, nothing he said and try his best to maintain all body language as he had on the previous approach; the only thing that would be different, would be that he would be thinking "man, I'm gonna slice your f---in' throat!".  He looked the same when he approached but the dog went totally nuts.  He literally looked like he wanted to tear that guy to shreds.  If I had seen this reaction from this dog BEFORE I approached him, I never would have.  It was amazing.  Now, I'm sure that the dog had all sorts of signs that were not visible to my eye or senses but, this dog picked right up on them. 

This is what I'm talking about.  Yes, he was protection trained.  What do they do differently to train these dogs to assess the person's actions and body language?  What sort of tests show you that a dog has what it takes to do this?

Needless to say, my dog failed her temperament assessment horribly. 

there  are other added dimensions -- i hear a lot of stories .. some have all the facts .. others don't and one can sometimes misinterpret the event and the response of the dog -- you can have a ploice dog trained well with all that it takes to apprehend . but then ina different contect/ episode the dog falls short .. SO .. not always is it the dog per se. the other dimension is related to the fact that each particular animal on this earth has an innate predisosion to percieve and respond to stimuli -- some as we know are predatory -- others are non-predatory i.e.-horses . id the context is outside what it is genetically /innate then the animal may have no response. that is the experience does not fit into it's shema of things .. we see this in animals with high prey instincts .. what do we do when faced with an animal like that simply freeze and don't run -- a lion will also react the same way ..if  a context is outside it's innate repitoire it may not attack .. there is no recognition to the stimulus and hence may not have the behavioral response. .. case in point about a  police canine -- you can teach it a behavioral response :if a felon holds his hands up and freezes  then you teachthe dog a beahvioral response  to  automaticly  hold/ guard for that hands up predentation .. you can teach that canine to go to a gun hand to when sent to a felon ... OK now you send that dog to a felon holding a gun that raises it handfs and freezes when the dog apprroaches to apprehend .. WHAT WILL HAPPEN [ assuming this has not been taught or in the dog's behavioral repitoire ] it most likely will hold and guard .... believe me .. a good number of police dogs have been shot -- once the dog stopped the idiot felon turns the gun on him and shoots him - same with protection -- the dog usually goea to where the practiced targeting ..in Sch do you see the dog go to the leg .. in ring sport , most often the dog goes to where it was taught the leg .. these are the innate and behavioral repitoires for those dogs> SO -- go let's easy on our critques .. there is many times more than what meets the eye