Training a 'Hard' Pup - Page 3

I don't think JJR was talking about "choking the dog out", but rather when she tired to pull the dogs front leg out for a down and the dog tried to bite her.

You're probably right and that makes sense, and I apologize because I agree.  Also, I NEVER phase out treats, balls or jute rolls.  All these things are forever in the pockets of my training vest.  I do stretch out the time periods between the rewards; however rewards are always a part of my training (from my voice to chicken bits) as are corrections (from my voice, my hands, the pinch collar the e-collar). 

Well, I had no intention to offend BUT I do not agree with the use of pinch collars or e-collars EVER and I can't even think of a situation when I would need to use a check chain.  There are more effective methods.  The use of motivation works best if you don't correct.  Yes, thats what I said AND it works with a 'hard' dog.  Your hard dogs have high drive and low body sensitivity so why use physical punishment?  20 years ago I would have agreed with you but not now.  Why not get inside their mind instead?  It takes time to develop the knowledge and skills to train without punishment but you end up with a far better dog.  Why pull a dogs legs forward to get it to go down?  What is the dogs natural reaction to this?  Struggle of course!  If it is scared it will bite!  If you push the dog into a fight / flight response you will get one of three things: FIGHT / FLIGHT / FREEZE.   In fight the dog bites you.  In flight the dog struggles and will bite if it can't get away.  In freeze the dogs get stiff and has a job moving.  In any of these response a dog can't learn, so just stop. Keep YOUR cool.  Restrain the dog on a lead or in a kennel / crate and then THINK about what you need to train to avoid it happening again.  AND before anyone says I haven't had a 'hard' GSD we worked security dogs for over 20 years, employed 60 + handlers and had about 300 'bad' rescue dogs through the kennels.  What I did then was similar to what I hear on these posts but I wouldn't chose the same methods now.

OK  - Off my soap box now - I'll dive for cover!!!!

JRR, the way I train is this: I ask the dog to do something, possibly offering a treat as a motivator. Eg. to train Ranger to alert me to the smoke alarm, I'd  trigger the alarm, then get him all excited by saying "WHAT'S THAT? WHAT'S THAT?" Then, I'd offer him a treat. Maybe the second or third time the treat would be closed in my hand so he would have to nudge me before I'd let him have it. Then, of course, I'd praise him. Eventually, he wouldn't get the treat until he'd made physical contact with either his paw or his nose.

With a pup, the usual way to train the down (and you'll see this in nearly every training book) is to give the command, then gently take the pup's paws in your hand, and press down on its back until it's in a down position. Some books have you anchor the leash under your foot, and pull the pup's head down. Ranger was very hard to teach the 'down' to. The trainer said it was because at that time, he was an un-neutered male, and didn't want to put himself in a submissive position, so with him, we'd use a treat as a motivator, while giving him the physical cues. Eventually, I just had to tap the ground in front of him with my finger, and he'd go down.  If there is a way to teach this WITHOUT TOUCHING THE DOG, other than waiting for the dog to decide all on its own to lie down, I'd like to hear it!  I'm always open to learning something new.

I'd also like to say I DO use a pinch collar on Ranger sometimes. He weighs 80 lbs. and when he's excited will pull against his regualr leather collar. I can control him, but it's no very pleasant walking him when he's like this.  As soon as I put the pinch on, the pulling stops, and he becomes a model K9. He doesn't even try to test it anymore!

When I brought Ranger home, he had never been walked on a leash. He was kept tied 24/7 on a 8 ft. chain, attached to a 2 1/2"  wide leather collar. He lunged against the collar to the point his neck was raw. I bought the pinch collar, put it on him, and within a very short time, he was walking by my side as if he'd done it all his life!

JJR:  Again, a "hard" dog is a dog that can take a correction then come back into drive immediately, not a dog that is difficult to train or hyper.  With our dogs, motivational methods and using corrections are valid training methods.  Perhaps you are thinking of the old "yank & crank" methods, I would agree that method is outdated.  I am sure what you saw 20 years ago is not what we are doing today.  Perhaps you might suspend judgement until you actually see how it is done these days as our dogs are not treated cruelly.  Otherwise, I fully respect your right to train your dog as you see fit. 

BTW, the 'bites' this pup gave me when I tried to hold her legs for the down were protest bites, gently mouthing my hand. She's not a nipper, thank goodness!

sunsilver .. there are a number of ways to teach the sog to down without touching it [ not to say touching itself is bad but i generally do not push my dogs down .. but that is me ]. nor do i teach using a leash or a collar . i do not want to sound a bit uppity upitty , but to share with you .. i teach the dogs right from the start to .. RESPOND TO ME. two more comments to increse you awareness --i see a lot of people do what they think is motivational training but by my criteria it partly is , but not 100% motivational -- the reason i say this to those that are extremely well versed -- because many have to keep rewarding the dog , let say with the hot dog,  right up to trial day ... in some behavior modalities ,,when the dog realizes there are no rewards .. the behavior extinguishes !! goes away -- i  personally do not coin that true motivational behavior . secodly in regards to training .. many peop[le think they are doing or getting obedience from their dogs -- I don't see that as true either .. to me there is a differentiation between willful, joyful preformance of a behavior when cued / requested .. as opposed to a dog doing something beacuse it it COMPLYING ! .. with compliance i often see: the first chance the gog thinks it will , moy thinks , but beleives it doesn't have to offer the behaviot .. then it won't .. there lies those that HAVE TO CORRECT ! so if you have to use a hand to down , and i mean with willfulness,  a dog to teach it -- there are a lot of ways to teach it without even using a hand with true motivation !

When I teach the platz, I don't touch the back or the legs.   With the puppy on a table in a sit, I have a bit of food in my hand and from above the head I bring that hand down between the dogs front legs and as he comes down I say platz.  I make it a real fun game, real bouncy so eventually he knows that when I say "platz" not only is he to lie down but he is to drop down fast.  I may give him his whole breakfast or dinner in bits like that!  This way there are no submission issues.  I do it this way because with puppies, pretty much everything is motivational until around a year old.

Sueinc -- to share with you -- i always teach the platz from a stand position -- i plavey dog on a table , the edge or a stair well , or my porch edge .. this helps to have the dog fold into a perrect sphynx position .. the dog has no propensity to step forward nor does it ever develop the habit of creeping -- just as you stated a qiuck drop down and back !  this may also translate into sports.. for example the down in motion -- i have found , works for me , that if a teach and condition this from the start that is how the dog will platz .. the instant i say platz .. what is th conditioned response ?instantly...  down and back ![ no step forward ]