Muzzle/Smock training for defense drive - Page 3

I probably would not use the muzzle with a "pure sport" dog for the fact that unless you have a very good helper and always have a good helper in trials you are opening a can of worms.  Once the dog learns that they can contact anywhere if they slip off the sleeve or miss the bite accidently or helper-intentionally they may very well grab what's closest.  For a dog intended solely as a sport dog "sleeve happy" is not a bad place to be.  Now if you want a more serious dog for your own reasons then obviously the above wouldn't apply.  Also remember we are talking about the "average" schutzhund handler/helper/dog, as was mentioned before it does take a good helper and handler to correctly train with the muzzle.

An interesting side note, when I started Barbie on muzzle work it amazed me how fast she found the vulnerable/sensistive points of the human anatomy.

Colleen and K9 Barbie

Gsdsch3v,

Excellent points.  Again, I am not endorsing using this on a sport only dog.....surprised that it took this long for someone to bring up the "dreaded" sleeve happy words. 

How long did you wait before introducing the muzzle....not limited to age of dog....interested to know if you were at SCH III  or comparable level of proficiency in another discipline?

Kind of a long soap opera on the exact when, the initial intro was not done properly at the patrol train up course so I had to re-introduce it later.  (AZ email me if you want the info on that gsdsch3v@aol.com)  After I was satisfied that she had a good understanding of the bitework I re-introduced it.  The purpose was to teach her that there are other body parts besides the arm/sleeve that are quite effective to bite and win.  She also got more confidence from that as well as learning to use her body more effectively.  (the accidental decoy bite in the suit didn't hurt either on that- no really stop fighting the dog she's gonna bite your insert decoy sissy shriek here hand).  I did not wait until an advanced level but used it as another tool to teach some things just beyond the basics.

To me muzzle work has less to do with drives and more to do with social dominance. It does use teach the dog to use it's body to some extent but it is more about tapping into a dogs natural intictual compultions (such as drive but this is different). Does not have a whole lot of application in sport (depending on what sport you compete in) but I think could be used in small specific applications to improve in an area of sport work.

From what I have seen the muzzle is basically taught three different ways. The method in Europe is what you see in Belgian Ring and the Sweedish defense program. These basically consist of the dog striking the decoy once and going back to a guarded object or into the guard of a suspect. I don't see the usefulness in these styles other than to ensure the dog will strike a decoy with no equipment, which is fine, but I see no real advantage or application outside of sport work. I say this because.......

1) you can proof a dog to bite for real without a muzzle

2) In a real life bite scenario such as LE why on earth would you want a dog to strike once and go back to the handler or into a guard. In real life if you have to send the dog, most likely they are not gong to give up on a quick body blow or bite. If you have to send the dog generally you are in for a real fight.

The second way is how I see it done a majority of the time in LE in the US. This usually entails taking  a dog already trained in bite work, putting a muzzle on them, let the dog knock the bad guy down from a short distance and then, "Yahoo, ride 'em cowboy".  Ok this is a little better because the dog does learn how to use their body in a fight. Some say this builds fight drive and I agree with this to a certain extent. My opinion on this style is it is more of a raw technical excercise, like a football lineman using the body-bag sled. You are really only teching brute force.

Now the third way. The way many never get the opportunity to see.

http://www.diehlspolicek9training.com/training.html (hit Down Muzzle link)

I have only seen this once in real life and twice on video. To Me this is a thing of beauty; an art form. I get goose bumps when I see training like this. This is psycologically tapping into a dogs biological instinct to dominate. You not only teach the dog to work without equipment, to use their body to fight, but highten the dogs instict to dominate and win the fight. The psycological advantage that you need when fighting a physically superior opponant. That thing you need to stay in a fight even if you are losing.

I do not know Mike Diehl (sure would like to meet him and get the opportunity to learn from him) so this is not a promotion. He doesn't need it. He is a far bigger fish than I will ever be.

OK, not for nothing, but that was really sad. The dog had no intensity until he was flanked, and ...........well WTF is that all about? He was playing for the most part. Then he allows the guy to do all that before the flanking. Deep psycho bullsh$t. LOL I got goosebumps thinking that if I had to rely on this dog I am dead. LOL. Sorry, that was so stinking sad, I was laughing so hard I thought I was going to pee.

The other thing is that if you are going to do muzzle work your dog should be able to deal with it. I have no idea if this was done, (OK I do, they just slapped it on and figured OH well) but with the sad amount of intensity that dog was showing, I would not want it. ( the dog)

In the BR which I know just a little about, it is the intensity with which the dog engages, and engages the RIGHT person. THere is a decoy in a suit as well, so the dog HAS to get it right. So if the dog goes to the guy in the suit he fails the exersize.

The other thing, you cannot get a weak dog (like the video) to knock the snotcakes out of a guy. No amount of training will get you BS'ed past a judge.

I think that if you go to google video, and then in the search box put in Martine Loots you can watch some BR stuff. Pretty sure there are some vids with this exersize there. AND as an additional bonus, it is not NEARLY as sad as the video I just watched. I am going to have to show my friends.

Olskool, we must be around the same age Could have been my words!

Get A real dog,

The reason you see one bump, or a few more, in the Swedish programm is because unlike real life it has rules, the rules says as soon as the decoy are not attacking or aren´t moving the dog shouldn´t continue to attack, that´s the only difference. If it was a real situation the dog would engage as long as the suspect is fighting or as long as the handler want´s. What you describe, when the dog is bumbing and "wrestling" many times is not different, it´s just that the controll and rules are left out I guess.  To  learn the dog to use it´s body I never heard you use the muzzle for, the dog should strike like it would if there was no muzzle, not hitting with chest or paws, or the side of the muzzle, this also hurts less than a solid clean strike with the mouth first.

You don´t need muzzle for real life work, many dogs of different breeds can bite people for various reasons.

The benefit of the muzzle is that sometimes, like riotcontrolls, it´s better if the dog only hurt some ribs instead of a more serious biteinjury, a strong muzzlehit stops most people anyway. And the more obvious reason to use the muzzle is to get dogs used to bite unprotected people, without sleeves and suits, because many dogs could bite like crazy in a suit but have problems to bite for real, or with a more aggressive attitude. The philosphy of muzzlework is to get a dog to bite man without padding, that´s the same everywhere I guess.

Jeff,

I am sorry you do not understand that video.

Jennie,

I was not being disrespectful.

Maybe I am confused. Is the Swedish Program a sport? I thought it was a police certification program. Maybe it is like our police k9 trials and a competition. I actually think the Swedish are ahead of the game in many aspects of dog training

Quote:

My response is not so much that I do not understand, as much as find it sorta goofy. I guess a good analogy is that you need the right tool for the job, and if you have to go through all that.................probably not the right tool.

It´s a sport for civilians, quite similar to the police own certificationprogram and their competitons, the major difference is that the civilian programm has actually more things to do, and more muzzlework compared to what the police have nowadays.