There MUST be a Reason! - Page 3

lol - has anyone heard Jeff Foxworthy's diddle on men sratching their buts and how when they get old its all gone and they look like frogs with pants on...

That dog sunsilver posted kind of makes me think of that frog walking arund with pants on....yikes that doesnt look too good...though in reality alot of those dogs remind me of that - its like they have to suck their butts in as far as they can.

I think one of my largest issues with this back is that it looks pretty awful when they trot - many of the dogs hold their necks down and they basically look like moving hills...it looks a little silly.

This is also an excerpt from a Book published in the 1920's...right after Stephanitz's book came out in the US...it is titled the Police Dog and it discusses the German Shepherd of that day...this illustrates what they call the carp back which was a fault during that time period. :

http://filebox.vt.edu/users/catehelf/CCF00682007_00000.jpg

~Cate

Well said, Chris.   Your dogs illustrate that point beautifully.

Guys... can you tell me if  "in a Working -line enthusiasts' eyes...do you think this dog can't work having a topline like this...??"

http://www.svhunde.com/photouploads.htm

Marci, that' doesn't look like a true roach to me, just a steeply sloping croup. Personally, I don't like to see a dog built that way, but he looks like many of the showdogs you see in the database here (pretty typical of the vom Batu lines) and would probably do well in the show ring. Is he yours?

And why, as I asked upstream, is Ursus so popular as a sire? Is he still alive? Has anyone here seen him work?

Marci, that pup looks perfect for what is seen in the show ring. Still...he looks pained just standing there. I find it sad this is what is popular. Looks nothing like Max's dogs.

The link above of Okka made me smile. Glad someone else has my same taste in dogs. I actually inquired about her but never heard anything back. Nice bitch!

The photos of that young male on Stephen's website are very nice. This promising young male is in his developmental stage. There is absolutely nothing wrong with his topline. If you think otherwise, please research the following dogs here on the Pedigreedatabase: V-Veus vom Haus Veile, V-Amon vom Patriot, V-Buster vom Adelmannsfelder Land, V-Cliff von der Möhnequelle, V-Falk Berkelau, V-Wito von der Stadt Schmalkalden (with East German blood), V-Fero vom Zeuterner Himmelreich. These are all past and present workingline dogs with correct conformation. I could go back further if I wanted to or find more dogs with similar toplines. On purpose, I did not cite any confirmationline dogs. This also proofs that the toplines of correct dogs has not changed much for the past 20 years or so. What has changed in some confirmationline dogs is the rear angulation which also creates the appearance of a more sloping back.

As I have mentioned before, banana backs are considered a major fault.

Please refer to the official FCI breed standard for German Shepherd Dogs: en.ciobanescgerman.net/german-shepherd-dog-standard.php

The back, which is only the middle part of the topline is level. But the withers have to be high and long. The croup is supposed to be long and sloping. This all creates a sloping backline from the tips of the ears over the neck (which is supposed to be carried in a 45 degree angle) and level back through the tip of the tail! It is supposed to be one flowing sloping line. This can best be judged in movement.  This female featured on the Griselda homepage, Ica has serious structural faults when compared to the official breed standard. The first one, Occa has her limitations, but was still considered breed-worthy. But I want to bet that her movement is seriously restricted.

We can all discuss our personal preferences ad nauseum, but the fact remains that we have an official breed standard and should abide by it. The GSDs of the first part of the 20th century were transitional dogs and that was that, no matter how much you long for them. Just compare them to the breed standard.  Max von Stephanitz had a vision of the German Shepherd Dog and worked to fulfill it for many years. Others completed his vision. Breeding is thinking in generations!!! Our modern dogs most certainly  have their problems, one is the banana back. Other problems are temperament, overangulation, oversize, incorrect fronts and short croups. These problems are addressed annually by the SV. Anybody interested can read it. Unfortunately, these kind of problems are not solved overnight. But they are recognized and addressed! Sometimes, overcompensation of one problem creates another (see the banana back vs. a long sagging back).

Chris

As I do not believe the Captain ever said that the dogs he chose were transitional and not the complete dog that he wanted I imagine that that is a personal view.

I think there are also those who feel that instead of completing his vision others destroyed it.

I do agree with you though - there are alot of other problems that do include over angulation, too heavy boned, shorter legs and snouts, and over size...but those are all problems I personally see based upon the old standard...and if they are addressing them as problems does that also mean that that older style dog is the way to go?

I often wonder why the German Shepherd which is supposed to be the working breed is the only one that looks like this whereas dogs like Dutch Shepherds and the Malinois are themselves closer in structure to Max's dogs - and I dont know if it is just me - but when I hear people talking about really *really* serious working dogs I hear them talking about those dogs...if this structure is really that superior and really allows for better movement then why dont those other breeds follow it?  I believe both standards call for free and lively movement especially at the trot but these dogs are far more square than the GSD.

You are also very right - it is based very much upon preference - and preference for certain look or beliefe in the strength of a certain structure is what changed the standard in the past and in all liklihood will change it the future...I guess we all just have different ideals when when we think or hope for that future.

~Cate

Silbersee":  I dont know how to link to this but on this database a male for sale   posted May 27  by Robi:  a young sable male for sale?   Switzerland......would you please comment ? Im puzzled?

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/classifieds/41130.html

Is this the dog?  If so, I think he is listed twice but with different pictures.  If so, I think maybe this illustrates how a dog can have a straight back, but when stacked, it looks a bit roached. 

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/classifieds/41131.html

I believe this is the same dog, but stacked differently.