Breeding question... - Page 3

It's the same in the hunting & retrieving breeds.

workingdawg, I have seen Eddy work several times and you are right he is a very nice dog.  He works like a working line male, very nicely.  I also seen his father work years ago and he worked nice as well.  If more show line people bred to dogs like him, there would not be questions about the working ability of those lines. 

I bred my foundation female to an Aly son (who happens to be owned by the breeder of Earnhardt btw) and got a very sucessful litter in the work but inconsistant in size.  some were smaller, some top of the standard.  I have heard about small size coming from Troll NB especially when linebreeding on him, so that was something I wanted to stay away from when breeding the female I kept from that litter, as I hoped to improve size on my girl.  However, I ended up breeding her to a male who carried Troll through Yoschy so the linebreeding was a 5-4 on Troll.  That litter is only 6 months old, but so far the size did improve.  We got one female that was petite/smaller and the rest were bigger in size and substance.  The female I kept weighs more then her mother already at 6 months of age. 

I would love to hear about your litter with Eddy and see how he produces!  You will have to let me know how the litter turns out!

Valerie

Jeff, My showline female, linebred on Fanto vom Hirschel, has great rear angulation, a great topline, per standard, and she can jump, climb, stand up & walk on her back legs. I think that these showline v workingline threads all miss the fact that each dog has it's own strengths & weaknesses, & there are outstanding individuals from both sides of the line. And these are the individuals who should be bred, whether to others of the same ilk or to the opposite camp is the perogative of the owner, & to further that breeders vision of the perfect GSD. Within the confines of the breed standard, I think we all have the right to our own vision of perfection. Do I have it right? jackie osborne 

valerie

small world in the working dog comunity. my female is also from kimo. I have also seen the sire to eddy and worked him.   greg is now happy at i believe 11 in a wonderful retirement home in NY.  you are right eddy is an impressive dog i have had the chance to work him a couple of occations and he is very powerful.

what was the sire you used with your female

But there should be enough GSD breed for working foremost in many generations, so I don´t really see that a narrow genepool is a valid fact for breed a workingline to a showline, especially when many showlines have similar dogs like manyworkinglines far back in the pedigree.  And what is a good structure anyway, I agree that some workinlines also could have a bad structure, but the perfect structure according to many showpeople is also wrong and uggly in my opinion. If we look at nature a structure build for work should be like a wolf or dingo, normal angulation, and straight quite short backs, and that´s is not the ideal many show people want. It was also that way many GSD looked before the change of structure happened in the 60s and to our days.

I´ve seen some good show/workingcrosses, but when it comes to breeding it´s important to not look at the individual dog only, littermates and the dogs  few generations back is also important. The dogs with some showlines I could think is good and inttressting for breeding is the ones where the showdogs in the pedigree was not only a pretty face or choosen for the "good" structure, but rather decent workers and ancestors that also was OK mentaly and healythwise, even if there lines are more from known showlines to beginn with. I mean there´s a difference between two dogs from  similar showlines from start, if one of them have been breed mostly for work several generations, and the other one have been breed mostly for looks and a certain structure. Dogs from showlines wasn´t that bad many times in the 80s even, but its seems it has gotten worse aftre that.

Some dogs who are crosses with working and some showlines I like that also are good workers are for example these two, even if I rahter have no showlines at all,

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/446830.html

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/392558.html

workingdawg,

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/400181.html

That is the male I bred my Kimo daughter to.  I have been very happy with my Kimo litter, and now very happy with what my Kimo daughter has produced so far.  They are young yet, but at this point they are looking good.  We have another Kimo son in our SchH club who works very nicely also.  He is from a show line female I believe.  You would never know this dog was 1/2 show lines :) 

Valerie

I tend to agree with Jennie. If this was the 80's showlines, I would do it, but now the showlines are 10 to 15 generations bred on the Canto/Quanto background. To me that is too much imbalance to go to a workinglines dog that is usally linebred lightly. The reason the showlines are softer in general is because of the extensive linebreeding. So the plus you get get from the showlines positive attributes, are at a price of the negatives from the showlines being so strongly bred into the dog, that you would have to take generations to correct or get consistency in the weaknesses from the showlines. Hope this makes sense, but the showlines in the 80's were still diverse enough to make this work. Not now, if you want to retain strong temperament and breeding consistency.JMO

Quote:

Jeff, My showline female, linebred on Fanto vom Hirschel, has great rear angulation, a great topline, per standard, and she can jump, climb, stand up & walk on her back legs. I think that these showline v workingline threads all miss the fact that each dog has it's own strengths & weaknesses, & there are outstanding individuals from both sides of the line. And these are the individuals who should be bred, whether to others of the same ilk or to the opposite camp is the perogative of the owner, & to further that breeders vision of the perfect GSD. Within the confines of the breed standard, I think we all have the right to our own vision of perfection. Do I have it right? jackie osborne 

Simply out of curiosity, and not to get any one in a huff, let me ask some basic questions, kinda like a psych test, no wrong answers.

What is great rear angulation??? How did you prove that?? Great topline, per standard. Ok, whose interpretation??? It is a written standard, and it hasn't changed ever that I know of. Why is there a difference in the way dogs look?? Jumping and climbing. OK, Jumping and climbing what???? Does she do the pallisade? The meter and a half hurdle??

All dogs have strengths and weaknesses. This is true. If I were to work your dog in FR, how far off what it takes to do the sport would she be?? Did you title the dog in a bitesport???

Quote:   Within the confines of the breed standard, I think we all have the right to our own vision of perfection

Do we???? This is a serious question, cause we have all been led to believe this is true, but breeders of the GSD are producing............crap for the most part on both sides of the board.

Here is an interesting little note as to why everyone is so different, I thought this critique was funny, as it was too PC.

Judge Critque: Medium size, Substantial, Strong head, Should have darker mask, a little stretched, high wither, firm back, well positioned croup, good front angulation, very good rear angulation, very good movement, very good length of under chest, Should reach forward more freely.

Very good, very good, incorrect reach. : ) WTF is someone supposed to do with that???? If this were crossed over into training, it would be something like this I think.

Handler: I am thinking about having my dog on the long line.

Trainer: Ok sure, sounds good.  I wouldn't, but go ahead and use it. LOL

I was going to put the dog up there, but I know someone would get all butt hurt over it. : )

OMG Don, you finally said something that I agree with, LOL