26 year old Iraq Veteran Gunned Down At Home - Page 29

Having a bullet proof vest while committing a felony is another felony all together.  Yes, it can be a crime having a bullet proof vest.  I'm not surprised that you have 5 and you probably have plenty of ammo to go with them.     As long as you don't commit any crimes you are good to go.  Get involved with family members dealing thousands of pounds of weed illegally and it is a completely different story.  It is not a bad idea for those implicated in home invasions to have them either, job security.   It is dangerous work.

Do you have a lot of cowboys shooting their guns at your racetrack? 

No don't be silly. I'm serious though, they are mandatory on a racetrack. People have been gutted on the rails and rims already, horses too. I have a really nice one custom made and patent leather. Actually I have 2 that were given to me from the parents of a good friend of mine who died training for the Rolex 3 day events.

I prefer not to wear them honestly, but it' a rule on the racetrack.

Yep.  No one likes wearing body armor.
It's hot and uncomfortable and it sucks.
No one would wear it in Iraq, if it wasn't mandatory outside the wire.

Jim, I wish you would stay on the topic and was not sore about that I have no ban and free speech policy on my forum. And I keep my word on that point. By the way you forgot to delete one post.
Let me say
 A. I do support police . Some of my best friends are cops.
 B. I wish you would stop lying here about what I am saying. Because that can not be even called misinterpretation. It is bold face lie.
You say :
Hans, I am making bets that no one will ever convince you differently on this subject.  Even if the full report shows this guy was guilty.  You will still say that things should have been done differently, the SWAT team wasn't needed, make a traffic stop or arrest the guy at work.  He had a a family he would have surrendered peacefully...

 I have never said such thing. And unlike you I have not decided what happened  at this point. Do you have problem to read? It is either that or  you are lying about me.
I am saying that no one and that is especially cop like you should make derogatory statements about anyone until the investigation is over. And not before like you do and others are doing here. I will here also say that if the guy was guilty and he pointed gun at the officers than  he deserves what he got. But Jury is still in session so to speak . Thus i am not calling the guy a disgrace to USMC like you do.  
 
Yes I have entertained the thought that he should have been arrested at traffic stop rather than at home where there are children and dense neighborhood and I have even  asked you about it but you refused to answer. That is the standard option used if possible? Right? But I have not make a decision on it.

  I will talk to my friend who was on a SWAT team for  more then 10 years and  last time 4 years ago. He is active duty K9 cop. I will convey what he says about the tactics. 

What I can say is this. :
1. I am sorry about your fellow officer and I can only remotely comprehend how you feel.
2. I do not think that you can blame Libertarians for hating cops. I have seen Democrats and Republicans and independent to hate cops too. So what? I am Libertarian and I like cops. So now what? Sweeping statements like you are making are always false.
 

3. You say and this is part of my beef with you:
 I am not going to critique the SWAT team or discuss tactics with you as I do not see the point and this is not the place to do it.
 You are not going to critique SWAT team (which is OK!!) but you are willing to critique anybody else.  And not just critique but also throw emotionally derogatory  names and insults  galore and that is before the investigation is over.
4. You insinuating  that the guy got ample warning is and will be challenged. 27 sec and siren which sounded like a car alarm can be disputed as "enough warning" by some. There was no loud speaker announcement as you erroneously claim . 
5. You say : No other people, either civilians or SWAT team members were injured.   That unfortunately can not be only measure of things. I am not going to pass any judgment here, because I do not know the details,  but considering bullet in the neighbors house and bullets flying about a 4 year old child and his mother which was not part of the warrant,  will look bad  in court.
6.  I may have missed it, but where it, as you say, appears that he was involved in home invasions? Can you point me to it?
7. Bullet proof wests are not illegal in AZ nor is ownership of any amount of guns or ammo.  I have many guns too,.. so what? I am law obeying citizen. Your assumptions are just that, assumptions  and it is OK to think about what possible happened, but do not call the guy a disgrace until you are sure. That's  all.
 Prager Hans
 

 

BE,
Just one note for you, the vests jockeys wear are not typically ballistic rated and therefore do not qualify as Bullet proof vests.  The vests that I have seen that Jockeys wear are padded for protection from injuries from the rail and being thrown.  A Ballistic vest does offer some protection form impact such as a punch, strike, bat or other blunt trauma.  But is primarily designed for ballistic protection.    The cost of a new ballistic or bullet proof vest starts around $700 to $800 for a new one.  They only last about 5 years on average and need to be replaced.  You can find Equestrian style vests starting at $199.  You would not want to wear the vest I used all day riding horses, it is uncomfortable to wear for Police work let alone the athletic activity of riding horses.  I'm not sure about the "patent leather" vest; it does sound kindy sexy though.  Perhaps with fur lined handcuffs.   

Hans,
I read a couple of lines of your post and I'm too tired to get into with you tonight.  I am traveling tomorrow, maybe I'll read it then.  By the way, I didn't forget to delete the post about JB.  I puposely left that one as it gives her name and a chance for a novice to see who she is.  Feel free to delete it if you want after all it is your forum.   If I missed a  different one please let me know, I spent two hours checking.

Jim


 

Jim,  read the next sentence  veeeeery carefully. I do not delete any posts from  my forum. That it includes JB's or yours.
Hans

See Jim, there you go again .... did you ever wear or feel a padded vest (like you discribed) NOOOO  They are shit !!  (maybe ok for ponys and showmanships) One good kick by a horse wearing Queens Plates and the material shatters, the only thing keeping it together is the stitching. Who in their right mind training a racehorse on a racetrack would wear one of those you think we should wear ? Especially training a crazy in the gates ? Not me. If I'm obligated to wear one .. it's gonna protect me no matter what .. not get punctured an ripped off me by the adjustment handle in the gates or hitting a nut and bolt on the corner rail at who knows how fast at the time.

When you say Jockey's wear those crappy vests .. ya they are forced to downgrade vests in live racing ONLY (NOT track training) live racing because of making weight.

Look at WPRA, PRCA and NFR. They have the same rules as racetracks with the vests. What you are condoning is NOT so ..because the whole "high risk" of certain horseman careers demand the best protective wear. What are you gonna do, criminalize the whole horseman and bullriding association members ?

As a matter of fact, American Body Armor and BlackHawk are sponsors of the NFR !!! 

Jim, 
please read the following points I am making here with open mind.
First let me say that
I most definitely do not hold against you that you are defending police officers. You are police. Thus that make sense!  I have ZERO problem with you DEFENDING YOUR FELLOW POLICE OFFICERS. I defend them myself too (even so I am Libertarian:)) Where my problem lies that you are condemning the guy before all the facts are out and you and people who care have full story clearly in front of them.  We must be be fair to everybody. To cops and to the dead guy too!! That is our obligation. There is difference between defending someone and disgracing the other.
 
We must wait because we all make mistakes  all the time . I know I do for sure.
Here is my proof:
 You have mentioned the public system announcement was used before the gun shots. HOWEVER(!!!!!)If you would watch the video carefully and listen carefully then you will realize, that the public system was not used prior to the entry, but was used only after the shots were fired and SWAT retreated. That loudspeaker  announcement was made only after Guerena was already dead! It appears that he first announcement was made without loudspeaker just literally seconds / immediately before the shots were fired. Was that enough time to respond,..we will see.
  Thus car alarm sounding siren was first, then plain verbal announcement, then polite knock, then  kick door in and shots fired. All 27 seconds. Do not misconstrue this as a critique of the SWAT team and their  right or wrong  tactics. What I am pointing out to you   What I am doing is not critisizing what is thaqt 
  most importantly is   that even you made mistake about the timing of the announcement which in reality was only 27 second long before the shots,... and all that blaring which everybody mentions here was AFTER the shots in order to get  everybody who survived out.
Watch carefully this video and listen what they are saying.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHc4nC2X2Pk&feature=related
 
Thus you were wrong. Which is OK since  we are all wrong all the time. There may be more 'wrongs' in our concepts and "rights" which we do not know about . And  exactly that is why you should wait before you start calling the dead guy names.

Jim, again I will repeat;  I most definitely do not hold against you that you are defending the police. You are police. Thus that make sense! I have ZERRO problem with you there. Where my problem lies that you are condemning the guy and on top of it call him disgrace, before all the fact are out and you and people who care have foll story clearly in front of them.  

Prager Hans