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by Myracle on 11 June 2011 - 00:06
Which is why our wonderful free Country established "the beliefs of a reasonable and prudent person in the same situation" as a measure of acceptable behavior.
A reasonable and prudent person does not respond to sirens, Police presence and the announcement of a Warrant by standing in their hallway with a loaded weapon.
In fact, the stories of people murdered during home invasions by criminals dressed as Police, proves MY point, not yours.
Average people, the average, reasonable prudent people who were murdered in those cases, believed that it was the Police at their door.
I'm not exactly sure what it is you think LEOs should be required to do? Be shot before they defend themselves? Allow an armed criminal to escape and endanger the community?
Yes, the weapon was on safe. And the LEOs were to know that how, exactly? By waiting to be shot? Do you have any idea how quickly that particular model of rifle can be taken OFF safety and placed into FIRE? I do.
by BabyEagle4U on 11 June 2011 - 01:06
What a joke, this Marine would have been better off shot in combat where his brothers and sisters in arms would have braved enemy fire and attempt to save him.
Ohh good Lord.
by Slamdunc on 11 June 2011 - 01:06
It is important to point out that criminals expect the Police to come for them at some point, they also expect other criminals to come for them also. If you are a criminal and associate with criminals, in this case a criminal organization linked to thousands of pounds of marijuana and home invasions you expect some one to be after you. It is a way of life for people in this profession and a cost of doing business.
Mudwick, again you are correct. Our M-4's are always on safe until we are ready to fire. We train entries and our guns are in safe until we encounter a threat. It takes a fraction of a second to take the safety off and is muscle memory after training enough. It is also possible that he forgot or neglected to take the safety off and it was a lucky day for the SWAT team and other innocent civilians like his family.
by mobjack on 11 June 2011 - 01:06
TUCSON (KGUN9-TV) - The Pima County Medical Examiner told KGUN9 News Monday afternoon that even if medics had reached Jose Guerena immediately, they probably could not have saved him.
On Monday morning the M.E's office released Guerena's official autopsy report. The 26-year-old former U.S. Marine was shot to death in a SWAT raid on May 5. The report confirms what a spokesman previously said to KGUN9 News by phone, that Guerena's body had 22 bullet entrance wounds. The report also shows that Guerena had many exit wounds as well. There were no drugs in his system.
The report goes on to note in detail the entrance location and trajectory of each wound, most of which were on the victim's extremities. The medical examiner listed, in order, these entrance wounds:
-- one wound to the head, which the report describes as a graze;
-- one wound to the right upper chest;
-- one to the right lower chest;
-- one to the left upper abdomen;
-- three to the right upper arm;
-- one to the right elbow;
-- one to the right hand;
-- one to the left upper arm;
-- one to the left elbow;
-- one to the left forearm;
-- one to the left hand;
-- two to the right thigh;
-- one to the right calf,
-- one to the right foot;
-- four to the left thigh;
-- and one to the left foot.
The report also notes that the body shows "no evidence of medical intervention."
As 9 On Your Side previously reported, the SWAT team kept paramedics waiting for more than an hour before finally telling them that Guerena was dead, and sending them away. A SWAT doctor had pronounced Guerena dead on the scene by telephone, based on observations obtained via a robotic scene monitoring device, or recon robot.
by mobjack on 11 June 2011 - 01:06
When reached by phone Monday afternoon, the Pima County Medical Examiner, Dr. Gregory Hess, told KGUN9 News that two wounds in particular led to Guerena's death. The bullet that hit the left thigh traveled into the abdomen, where it lacerated a kidney and cut through an artery. Equally serious was the bullet that entered the abdomen, which then traveled through the spleen and into the left lung. Both wounds led to immediate, massive blood loss.
"I doubt he would have survived even if paramedics had been let in immediately," Hess told KGUN9's Jennifer Waddell. "There would have had to have been heroic efforts to try and stop the bleeding."
Hess said no single shot was immediately fatal, but he said with all the wounds combined, Guerena suffered from "rapid and severe blood loss." Hess told KGUN9 News that the official recorded time of death was 10:00 AM, which was about a half hour after the shooting.
Most of the bullet wounds also have corresponding exit wounds -- and in six cases, there is more than one exit wound per bullet. One such exit wound had 20 of what the report describes as "slit-like and gaping lacerations" associated with it, ranging from an eighth of an inch to half an inch in length. Hess told KGUN9 News that some of those multiple exit wounds were caused by bullets fragmenting after the entering the body. But he said that in other cases, they may represent wounds received when Guerena was hit by flying debris or sharpnel produced by bullets striking the wall or other objects around him. The combined total of entrance and exit wounds listed in the report is 96.
The family originally stated that the body bore 60 bullet wounds. The SWAT team fired 71 rounds in all in a period of about seven seconds.
The toxicology report included with the autopsy found no drugs in Guerena's system. It did find a low level of alcohol, measuring 0.024%. The report notes that some or all of that low amount could have been the result of "postmortem production" -- in other words, caused by natural decay after death.
The report lists the manner of death as "homicide" caused by "multiple gunshot wounds." In this context, "homicide" is a legal term meaning that Guerena died at the hand of another human being. The use of that term has no bearing on whether the shooting was justified. Separate investigations into that question are underway.
by mobjack on 11 June 2011 - 01:06
The shooting has led to an emotional debate in the community about whether the use of deadly force was justified, and whether a SWAT team should have been used to serve this kind of search warrant in the first place. Pima County Clarence Dupnik told KGUN9 News anchor Jennifer Waddell last week that the use of a SWAT team to serve what it considered a high risk search warrant was fully justified, and that the team only fired when Guerena pointed a weapon in the team's direction.
Documents released late last week underscored what the sheriff's department and SWAT's attorney have previously said, that the team believed Guerena had opened fire. It also shows that one officer didn't wait to see whether Guerena would fire. In his debriefing, that officer stated that he fired on Guerena when Guerena began swinging his gun in the direction of the team. The investigation later found that Guerena had not fired a shot, and that his weapon still had the safety engaged.
credit to kgun9.com
by Prager on 11 June 2011 - 01:06
Also you say :As I have stated before I take it very seriously and personally when people accuse the Police of misconduct when they don't have all the facts.
That is exactly what you are doing to Guerena before you have all the facts!
Jim you are saying now :
Hans,
I haven't convicted anyone.
But here is what you have said before. :
Yup, and the guy is a disgrace to all the Marines who served our country valiantly.
As far as my motives.
Jim, here are my motives. I do not like what you are saying, as a sworn police officer, and the assumptions you are making in this case about dead/killed person before all the facts are out and you dishonoring potentially innocent man before is the time . It really pains me to hear it from someone like you.
Hans
P.S.
Since you have mentioned it, I assure that this has absolutely nothing to do with you telling me on international forum, that I am virtually perpetuating JB's cruelty against animals and thus questioning my honor and motives and love of animals which anybody who knows me are above aproach. Yes I did invite you into my house. But then You compared me to this scum of the earth JB.
I have forgiven you that already, because I belive that you have ment well and did not understand me.
I as far as the phone goes you have just as far to the phone as I do.
Hans
by Prager on 11 June 2011 - 01:06
Jim how can you say that after the police actually fired shots who were flying by innocent child and ended in innocent neighbors houses?
This is not a "loaded" question.
Prager Hans
by Myracle on 11 June 2011 - 01:06
All you would have accomplished was tying up ambulances and fire trucks, who would have remained outside the building until Police were able to enter and confirm that there was no threat.
Paramedics WERE brought in, once it was determined that there was no threat.
by Prager on 11 June 2011 - 02:06
I'm not exactly sure what it is you think LEOs should be required to do? Be shot before they defend themselves? Allow an armed criminal to escape and endanger the community?
Where did I say such thing?! I have no problem with cops shooting armed criminals in their lawful function when they point a gun at them. As long as they do not endanger innocent bystanders. As Dirty Harry said. It is OK to shoot people as long as you shoot the right people. I fully subscribe to that.
What I am saying is that you and many others here should wait before all the facts are out, before you call anyone an disgrace of USMC and scum and other such choice things.
Please read the above sentence again and again and again,..... until you get what I am trying to say here.
Also there may be heroes Marines who later screwed up or behaved less them honorably. That does not take away from their former heroism. There are many of them and I do know some personally and always tried to help them to straighten up. Probably the most famous example is Ira Hayez who after his honorable discharge from the Marine Corps descended into alcoholism. He died of exposure and alcohol poisoning after a night of drinking. That is not very honorable, but after that he was still honorably buried with full military honors at Arlington National Cemetery.
I by no means do I compare Guerena to Ira Hayez it is just an example.
Hans
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