Question about HD - Page 2

Jonah, excellent commentary. A dog who is genetically predisposed to have sound hips should never suffer hip dysplasie, although environmental factors, such as poor nutrition and/or poor exercise may cause the hips to appear be of lower quality when the animal matures.

A dog who is genetically predisposed to have "so-so" hips may be definitely more sensitive to environmental factors since the joint quality lends itself to be less forgiving.

Regardless of the scores of the sire or dam, breed the best producers to the best producers, and cross your fingers. That is the best that you can do.

Bob-O

REALLY interesting "pod"!!! Is there a link to who is doing these studies? I'd sure love to read more! Any discussion on whether this "noise" could have something to do with cancer and other factors also?

Yes, BobO and Jonah, In my opinion breeding into the lines of the "best producers" is the most valuable factor. Production is far more important than the actual hip score of the dog! 

 Also, JMHO...

It is totally rediculous to think that unilateral HD is 98% environmental! To summise this, one has to think that the body forms each side exactly a carbon copy of the other side. It does not take very much intellegence to see/know that that is not even close to being true. I would guess that there is not even 1 human, who is exactly formed the same on each side of his/her body. Measure your arms, your hands, feet. Look at the 2 different sides of everyones face! None are exactly the same! Most HD producers have a "calling card" in the diagnosis in many pups from many different sires/dams. Many are unilateral in nature. So, should we say that all of the pups from all of these different environments around the world, all had the same contributing environmental causes???? LOL I would tend more to believe what BobO says about dogs who are genetically predisposed to a weak hip, being more sensitive to environmental factors. But that still makes it genetic, NOT environmental. As I stated previously, environment DOES have effects on HD in a developing puppy. BUT to make a statement that just because it is unilateral makes it 98% caused by environment, is totally rediculous!

Debby

ebinezer052899@yahoo.com 

No sorry, don't know of anything specific but just done a google and there's far more on it than the last time I looked.

As with the white markings, this 'noise' could be responsible for other asymmetries and from what I've just read, could influence handedness to some extent, which may be contibuting factor in unilateral HD as Badpuppy suggests.

Interestingly, some breeds, particularly Labradors, have a predilection for left hip HD and other breeds for right.  So is this evidence of the hereditary aspect of unilateral HD or of handedness?  Would be interesting to know if this correlates.

This is my personal experience with HD. The better the hips in the parents, g-parents, g,g-parents and their siblings, the better the hips in the current generation.

Using NZ's is not helping the GSD to produce less HD in their offspring. Yeah, I know all about Jeck, that one dog in a million. Not  really apples to apples unless you know how many he produced total, how many xrayed, his family status and the information on the bitches. Even if that is available and it proves he produced better hips than did his normal brother, so what. It's history. The breed may never see another Jeck, so why keep looking?

OFA stats show that the breeds with the most dogs rated excellent tend to produce the lowest percentage of HD in their progeny. Comparing the number of GSD's xrayed and submitted to OFA annually to the number rated excellent gives a pretty grim picture of the number of excellent hips seen in this breed.

I don't not believe for one minute that what a dog eats or not or how it's exercised or not "makes" a dog dysplastic. It will exacerbate the degree of HD in a dog that is genetically programmed to be dysplastic, but it will not "make" a dog dysplastic.

Some day we may have a DNA test that will identify the gene/s for HD. There is also the possibility that there is no gene or genes responsible for  producing it, rather a gene or a series of genes that either allows it to develop in the canine or prevents it from developing. 

Until that time IMO the best way to produce normal hips is to only breed the best hips to the best hips eliminating all the borderlines and milds and only use fairs when absolutely necessary, never NZ's.  Pay attention to the hips of the siblings eliminating any of your dogs that have siblings that are moderately to severely dysplastic or that have produced it in their progeny.  Xray dogs prior to breeding using an experienced vet and teach yourself what a correctly positioned hip xray should look like. I've seen some hip xrays that were so poorly positioned that  had to be re-done. Submit those xrays to OFA or to vet radiologists for a consensus. Have the xray done while the dog is  under anesthesia or heavily tranqulized, it can make a difference.

It worked for me and it should work for you. 

ya well I was told that an injury can NOT cause a dog to fail an OFA exam,  and quite frankly I know of such a dog that due to an injury around the 2 yr. old mark that OFA would not pass that hip at age 8 because of it,  they said there was too much in the xray to "clearly" see that hip and they simply could not pass it.  So things that make ya go mmmm.

I've been told injuries can cause dogs to fail OFA's and I have seen the proof on one dog (not owned by us).  I have been told injuries can NOT cause a dog to fail.  what to beleive ?????

Oh and then a vet told a buyer of ours that because the dog does a "lazy" sit,  she has displasia.  that was a nice mess,  I refunded the money took the dog back and have removed her for now from sale,  I want to do her OFA's at 2 yrs.  an Ortho specialist took xrays reviewed them and said he felt she would pass OFA prelims,  But the people did not care,  they heard displasia because she sits funny and had bruised the muscle in hip "soft tissue bruise" she limped for 2 days so they were convinced and no matter what anyone else said the dog was "Damaged Goods"  of course did not help that the breeder (not me) could not produce the OFA's for parents,  OFA site search resulted nothing,  what a mess.  I was told parents OFA'd good,  I saw copies of OFA Certs,  But now am wondering if I saw different OFA's  as some of the ped is OFA'd. 

Anyway point being someone says displasia and people freak. Not knowing all the facts about HD is our biggest issue !!! 

Thanks for all the input.  It's good that people don't just give a quick answer but expound on the reasoning behind their opinion.

Debbie,

Geeze, harsh way to give an opinion.

Dawg

I think we are still in the stages where it is impossible to "know" the fatcs. What is fact and what is speculation? Real studies need to be held. God knows how nice it would be, if all hip scores where mandentory, no "forget this x-ray ever took place" crap! Too many people make excuses for their dogs, "oh he was injured, oh the x-ray was positioned wrong" so take another one!

How many dogs are so great we should breed them regardless???

Injury or not, I wouldn't take the chance of breeding to that dog, when there are others out there with clean and clear hips. We can never know if faulty hips, sockets, ligaments were to blame. Maybe another dog sustaining the same accident would not have affected hips!

Fact is there are dogs out there that were raised on the wrong food, ran and jumped too younge and they turn out OK. If I have to keep my dog from jumping up on his rear legs while he is in his kennel, to keep his hips passing, they aren't normal sound hips in my book! Normal daily life, occasional falls and spills happen. If the dog doesn't hold up, he wasn't meant to. Scratch-on to the next dog please. I know it's disapointing/not fair/expensive, but if you make an exception, your not doing anyone any favors in the future of the breed.

Dawg,

Yes, I agree. But, unfortunatly, I know the arrogant jerk. 

genetic, poor diet, and environment allready covered so-

Not very technical or precise but.....dont let your dogs get fat.  Most of the time I run across a friend who talks about there poor dog with HD, its very very fat and has always been that way. 

When you shove gravy train and table scrabs to your 2000 dollar puppy and he looks like a wine barrel, dont bitch about HD, diabeties, cancer, temperement problems or any number of health factors abrituted to being fat. 

Fat dogs = unhealthy soon to be dead dogs....no excuses.

Echo,

That folk lore regarding "lazy sit" is as foolish and incorrect as several others including "bunny hopping" and deep angulation. I do not blame the vet for his/her ignorance, as it is quite widespread. Just look at all the vets pushing Science Diet on their unsuspecting patients.

Blitzen,

Most GSDs X-rays are not sent to OFA. A majority of those that are come from the unregulated American lines. With regard to breeding dogs with NZ hips, while it makes me uneasy, the statistics show only a very minor (negligible) difference between the progeny scores of fast-normal and nz dogs. The greatest difference occurs between the progeny of normal and fast normal dogs.

Best Wishes, Jonah