Pedigree help - Page 2

Gustav - you mentioned several dogs that you would like to see in the 2,3,4 of a breeding. I see some very nice dogs in the line-breeding chart that Xeph posted, unfortunately they are quite far back and may not influence the outcome as much as desired. I wonder if any of the "great" dogs of the 80's were collected so that they could contribute closer up in modern breedings. I see many peds that have very nice dogs back in 6,7 generation and would like to see closer. This may be because I was more aware of some great dogs back then, as I used to listen to world-class trainers talking about dogs and lines in the clubhouse after training, lol. I am not so in-touch with the thoughts or dialogue of those people today, unfortunately, as I live very far away and was out of the sport for a while.

Koots, it´s not allowed for German SV members to use semen.
That said, as long as a dog stays in Germany, there will be no semen.

I believe in nature and progress - in case there is no good progeny of a departed male, he most certainly was no good producer... but in case he was a good producer there will be offspring at least as good as himself ( and so on ).
That´s the way to go...

In Xeph´s example there are several impressive ancestors, but 5 or 6 generations later this doesn´t say anything about the parents and their offspring in question.

None of us knows if all the offspring was selected for the traits of the linebred dogs or for something totally different( I doubt it - way too many breeders involved ).

Susie - you have a very good point about natural reproduction of the traits that made a dog(s) great. I was just curious if breeders in the 80's had started collecting from dogs, as I don't remember it being mentioned back then as it is these days. Gustav said that in Xeph's example there are dogs he would like to see up close in a ped, but without semen that would not be possible today.

 

In Xeph's posted ped, the dogs that she was asking about are too far back to have much influence regarding the traits that she was pleased to hear of, IMO.   Xeph, I would be more concerned with the dogs closer up.      What do you see in them that makes you select those individuals?     

I believe in nature and progress - in case there is no good progeny of a departed male, he most certainly was no good producer... but in case he was a good producer there will be offspring at least as good as himself ( and so on ).
That´s the way to go...


evolution is good model. but shepherd people not let evolution play out and make selective breeding choice against goal. if goal change over time then selection criteria of past maybe not valid any more and genetics not used then can be good now. evolution argument not applicable in microcosm when human interfere and want to guide and then change mind of what man not nature want.

Fring, not all breeders "make selective breeding choice against goal", there still are breeders breeding according to the initial breed standard...
Out of this reason I believe in sire and dam first and foremost - as soon as you have to "believe" in breeders and dogs you maybe never met personally , and you know nothing about, you can´t know about their goals/temperament.

I always look at the parents, and afterwards I look at the ancestors ( includingt the breeders ).

is not just breeder goal. is association. canine bred to schutzhund rule different selection than bred to fci ipo rule. canine have more try for tsb test different selection than canine must do at once. if association allow 50 breed for stud when total breedings in year is 5000 is different from when total breedings is 1000. if association make no more 2-3 direct and indirect is different also. so association rule is parent to breeder choice. but selection of breeder different also if many club member are policie and army than if hobby people. so change in politics and policy make box around breeder choice.

if selection you say was good, not perfecto but good, no genetic bottleneck occur. but opposite true. that why german breeders must go to ddr to get fresh, example seigo, tom, lord, and asko big influence, and must go to some czech and slovak and get fresh. and czech and slovak must go to german blood also to get fresh.

if breeder choice good why fail on whole? economic theory have 'tragedy of the commons' and applicable to canine. you look in book but in short states best individual choice not guarantee good for whole. same breeding the canine. think forward 10 year of breed for fci ipo dogs less pressure on dog and no herding testing but all fancy and fast and SV do agility and rally and other stuff. and now, ten year future, man want working and herding dog. different goal. you cannot say breeder ten year before breed for fci ipo, agility and rally, and wesentest, made such good choice for different goal. facto, new genetics no good for new goal. may be good choice for then. and breeder who think SV move to create more pet is bad choice, must leave SV and breed for VDH, RSV 2k, or send dog to other country for breeding -- but too expensive for little breeder familia. so wealthy genetic asset lost. when goal change, it can be good when able and go back. and we are human so goal change is guarantee.

There are breeders

breeding for trophies
breeding for money
breeding for good looking dogs
breeding for good working dogs
breeding for good looking working dogs

The market rules first and foremost - a breeder not able to sell his dogs will either quit or change the strategy -
and at the end it´s the buyer who decides .

What do you see in them that makes you select those individuals? <--The simple answer is the very traits people mentioned from these dogs so far in the past. I know they're back there in the pedigree and really don't have much influence. I do like hearing that what these dogs were coincides with the dogs closer up

 I do like hearing that what these dogs were coincides with the dogs closer up

The sign of good producers.

While it excites me to see these old names, I don't want people thinking that such linebreeding so far back is what I am interested in in and of itself. That's just foolishness. But when I see something like this and I am unfamiliar with it, I want more information if I can get it :)