Large and KKL1 - Page 2

Brittany, your original argument is valid and then you blow it again with personal (blank). You are impressing your interpretation of what a good GSD might be. Your interpretation may differ with the next person. If a judge, who started as a breeder, has been breeding and judging for years before having the privilege of judging a Sieger Show, and decides that that is the right dog for the VA, that is the decision that needs to be respected. If you wish to change that then become a breeder, then a judge, then impress your own ideals by the way you will judge, and accept other people scrutiny that will always come with it. Otherwise breed what you think is ideal and accept the results these dogs may get in the show ring and SchH field for what they are, based on someone elses opinion. Your obession with 'roach' backs for example shows how you tend to loose sight of what is important. I can stack a dog so that it looks like it has a straight back and stack the same dog to look like his butt is trying to touch his belly button. Take that foot out from under the GSD and have it stand on all four feet in each corner like any other breed and you see a totally different picture as well. I would be far more worried about the trend of exaggerated rear angualtion. I don't need to though because I do not need to perpetuate it myself. Trends come and go, so if that ever become a trend that puts dogs in the front but I don't have any like that, I just need to bide my time til what I prefer is back 'in'. In Germany the VA is not determined at the Sieger Show alone. The VA depends on the dogs performance during the whole show season, his progeny group, his lines, and of course passing the courage test. Lets not go into more detail of that either since you have never been to a Sieger Show or prepared a dog for it, or had a dog prepared for it. Back to size. Your question is valid. But large means large for a medium size dog. It does not mean that it is a Great Dane. Thoug some certainly reach those heights sometimes it seems... A 60cm male will hardly be seen in the show ring, though according to the standard correct in size. If the plus/minus 1 cm rule was applied to the lower end, a 59cm male would still be acceptable, but in reality no one wants that. Few small males are shown, trialed or KKL'ed. If Eiko Kirschental was born today he would not gain much attention. He was 63.5cm and not quite 70lbs, which is a good weight for that height. With the dogs showing in the top today, he would look like a puppy next to them. A large male simply looks a lot more impressive and masculine against his medium sized cousins. The large dog demands automatic attention, that is where the eye will wander to. A dog should not be penalized for just size. Its the overall picture that counts. We would be missing some great producers if it was just for size. Size is also no indicator of what will be reproduced. Ghandi, who is a smaller male, by comparison of what is more common in the show ring today, he is a medium size dog, and produces both ends of the size spectrum including some very large offspring. Wallace who was a very large male does not really reproduce that size so much, but look at the quality he has put out there overall. When things start to take extreme forms is when problems arise. The SV judges are looking for size more closely now. It will take a few more generations of breeding to bring it back to an acceptable limit, and a few years to gain popular acceptance of the more correctly sized dogs. The real problem lies not so much with the 65cm dog anyways, but the 68 or 69cm dog that has been accepted as a 65cm dog... Yes, the 1 cm rule applies, I have yet to see a KKl report that says 66cm though.

My IMPRESSIONS Sieger Show 2006, includes the following: One very serious aspect that I would draw attention to - many females in this class were clearly over 60 cms. This alone offers the opportunity for interesting dialogue as to how size is being handled by the SV, perhaps it’s “who you know and not what you know”?? The German ‘rubber’ measuring stick has been the subject of discussion for many, many years. Another regular topic of discussion at the Sieger Show, which this year reached even higher levels of incidence is the comment from many German breeders/exhibitors and spectators and also many foreign breeders and spectators, NO CONNECTION – NO CHANCE. This is a very important issue for debate and resolution within our breed and throughout our breed World-Wide. The various aspects of this issue affect the FUNDAMENTALS which will determine the FUTURE of our breed. This issue affects the absolute necessity that the CREAM OF OUR BREED MUST RISE TO THE TOP. The best dog or bitch, regardless of ownership or connections, should be promoted to the highest position in order that they positively influence the progress of our breed. No importance should be placed on who owns/breeds a dog. I would congratulate the SV on the introduction of hair testing in order to check for THE ASSISTED COLOURING OF SOME DOGS WITH DYES at the 2006 Sieger Show. The taking of hair samples of the first TEN in the young dog classes and the first FIFTEEN in the adult classes was the most positive step in recent years to genuinely tackle CHEATING. The difference in the appearance of the dogs throughout all classes was very significant, I found it very reassuring how normal the colours appeared this year, and how some, who vied for top honours in previous years, now had colour which was very different. The owners should be in no doubt that this was well and truly noticeable. I sincerely hope the hair testing next year can be expanded to the top 20 in each class. I also hope the SV will consider implementing a FOOLPROOF height to withers measuring system for the first 20 in each class at the Sieger Show. It is unacceptable for obviously well oversized dogs to be most influential in our breed’s gene pool. For too long a blind eye has been turned in this regard, and this practice should end. The SV cannot, on the one hand rigidly refuse to increase the Breed Standard in regard to height to the withers, and on the other hand continue to allow SV Judges and SV Kormeisters to write down false measurements when they choose to. This is two faced, and this is cheating, and it must stop now. part two follows;

part two: The SV sets the breed Standard and the Rules and Regulations; they must also set the standard for integrity in our breed, which is of equal if not higher importance. CHEATING IS WRONG – TO CONDONE CHEATING IS EQUALLY WRONG. The SV Körung regulations are very clear as follows: 7.2 Koerklasse 2 Dogs included in the rating of Korklasse-2: b) with measurement over or under the limits of withers height by up to 1 cm; please note: the breed standard for height to withers are as follows: Males 60cm to 65cm – Females 55cm to 60cm. In my opinion this 1cm is far too restrictive to facilitate totally genuine measuring practices, especially in the Körung, and I believe that 2cm at the top end is much more realistic. This becomes very apparent when one looks at the size of many top placed dogs at the German Sieger Show over the years. Not forgetting that most of these males have the greatest influence on our breed. The German ‘rubber’ measuring stick has been an international joke for as long as I can remember. The Korklasse 2 grade is surely preferable than FAILING the Korung and losing otherwise outstanding dogs from our breeding pool. This coupled with honest measuring is surely worth introducing. I would also suggest a double check system for measuring height. It is far too important to leave to a single Kormeister, and measuring dogs using modern sophisticated methods which can eliminate or substantially reduce human error should certainly be explored. With modern technology surely this is possible. I make no apologies for writing about these very serious issues here in my IMPRESSIONS. The Sieger Show is the most globally important and globally influential GSD Show within our breed. We must highlight all the most important issues affecting the breed’s present and future for open debate, so that they may be taken seriously by the powerful and influential German Shepherd organisations, especially those within Germany, the homeland.

I don't think the top breeders would be happy to find out that their dog wouldn't pass the Kkl,because their dog was 70cm. You have all seen these dogs (whether in person or in photos). What then happens to these dogs who are measured at 67.5cm+? They get sold to the US where stupid Americans think GSD's are "LARGE BREED" dogs (seen "Large Breed puppy food" anywhere, and how many people feed this to their GSD's? How about those 150 pound GSD's that owners brag about????)?????? Then what? Honestly, there will have to be a major change in the way things are done, especially in judging. I am not a judge, so I cannot make these changes, only comment on them. I have seen German breeders sell dogs that were GORGEOUS, because they were "too small", being only 64cm for a male, or 58-59cm for a female. :( That is sad. Brit- As DH so correctly stated, the "gross" means large, but only large within the breed standard. Dogs over this 66cm Kkl2, are what is termed oversized, and too large. Having a dog who is 65cm, and having "Gross" on your Koer, is NOT the same as saying that the dog is a "Large Breed Dog". :)

well said you guys... to RECAP // Height does not matter if the dog can deliver and give justice to this Extra point (probably power during the bitework) So that working people will not say that big dogs cant make the work done ... They can bring the helper down even if the bite release prematurely due to their weight...at least the crowd will love it if the helper goes down... I know definitely a tall dog without centered balance will not trot fast, must still be stationed LOW to achieve close to ground TROTTING.

DH, My interpretation of what a good German shepherd might be is matter of facts. A KKL1 dog should be medium size dog with very good conformation and shows the demonstration that he/she enjoys doing what he/she does. I don't think that breeders in Germany or in the USA would not want me to become a conformation Judge lol.. I would be hurting too many peoples feelings by adding KKL2 on their beautiful “large” blk & red show dog of theirs. I think it's wrong to go and judge your own thoughts of what the breed standards are suppose to be. If you're judging.. judge by the standards.. leave your personal opinions at home. As a consumer of the GSD.. I want my moneys worth when it's time to enter into the ring and I want my dogs judged by the standards of the German shepherds. I do not want to become a victim of the political crap that goes on in conformation shows. My obsession with roaches are valid and it's indeed very important. It's not attractive for a dog, A dog who's supposedly representing the breed to have such deformity on it's back. Our dogs should have a straight and smooth back like whats on this photo example http://www.workingdogs.com/images/dogc1.gif / or http://www.workingdogs.com/images/doga2.gif not look like a camel with a hump on it's back like whats on here http://www.workingdogs.com/images/dogb1.gif for more go http://www.workingdogs.com/lshaw1.htm I see the word “Groß = large” on most popular dogs kor reports.

Brittany-- What you are failing to "get" here is that there are SMALL, MEDIUM, and LARGE dogs within the standard of the MEDIUM SIZED GERMAN SHEPHERD. Anything below or above standard, I could understand you griping about (with just cause!), but saying that because the Koer contains the word "Groß" in relation to their size within the standard (for dogs who are not within the standard should not receive a Kkl rating!) is just showing ignorance on your part. The BREED as a whole is MEDIUM SIZED. There are UNDERSIZED, SMALL, MEDIUM, LARGE and OVERSIZED dogs within the breed. The proper use of the Koerung is to weed out the dogs that are not within the GSD Standard. I would suggest emailing or personally speaking with some judges and getting knowledge of what you are speaking about before you post your opinion on a subject which you are clearly uninformed about or have an obvious misunderstanding of. What you might ask is "What size ranges (cm) would receive the classification of Groß, Übermittelgroß, Mittelgroß, etc." Then, Brit, check out the standard (read it), and specifically the SIZE sections as to what is allowed in the breed. THEN come back here and make your INFORMED opinion (and I guarantee it will differ from the one you have posted above!). Good luck, Melanie