why did this sire produce handler hard tough dogs??? - Page 2

No one said he Manto was " only" influence, but definitely a contributing factor. As for what Hukka and I have learned about breeding......it's laughable.

When dealing with a mentally strong, fiery dog, you just have to smother your ego and use your wits instead of your muscles or it will come up the lead at you, most of this type of dog are not handler hard, just, got a short fuse and intolerant of hard handling . I always wonder why peole get a manstopper type dog and then expect it to take any shit they choose to dish out.

Margaret N-J

given the importer bought the dog as his personal sport dog and to breed sport dogs to other sport dogs to make sport dogs there was no question ever of creating or seeking "man stoppers" .

the general trend was great grips and drive and general protection work, great nerves - problems (even with good handlers) in FST and obedience, a real stubbornness and lack of willingness. the better handlers could have dealt with it but like so many sport folk it is quicker and easier to just get another dog.

What type of dog was Manto?
Apparently he has a propensity for adding "hardness" to a breeding, and he was definitely quite the accomplished dog in the Schutzhund world, but does he also add a "sporty" elements (i.e. prey) to breedings as well? I'd imagine Manto brings hardness and great hunt drive via his sire Lord.

I have owned a great-grandson and great-great granddaughter of Manto through Glenn vd Huhnergasse as well as a granddaughter of Manto through Vox vd Kine. I have seen plenty of hardness in the protection work out of two of them (the great-great granddaughter is only 9 months right now and hasn't done anything but prey work), but none of them are handler hard dogs. Quite the opposite, in fact, in obedience: Very biddable and responsive to the handler. In protection, they need solid corrections or they will blow you off, but never came back at the handler.

Also interesting to note per someone's comment about Tom and dog aggression: I have a bitch linebred 3-4 on Tom and she is the best dog around any and all dogs: male/female, big/small, timid/aggressive. The only time she has ever shown aggression toward another dog is if the dog shows aggression toward me.

So, like someone else said, there is no way to point fingers at any one dog in a pedigree for a particular trait. It is a combination of nature/nurture.

I really like the breeding of this dogs sire. Some very nice line breeding on Troll, Yoschy etc.
I would want to see who he is breeding this dog to though to get these pups.

Each dog in the pedigree brings something to the table. I would like to know more about Eyk von der Schafbachmühle. Eyk has a WPO and RSPH behind his name. He is bringing some real world experience to the table.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm learning.
Could it be the line breeding of the father,'"Zar " - 3 - 3 V Yoschy von der Döllenwiese.
and the many strong produces in the breeding.

Yes, I think one of the reasons is his sire Zar von der Schiffslache. Zar is known to be a very hard dog and no prize for guessing why Zar only titled to IPO2 with such an experienced handler who has taken a few different dogs to BSP as owner. In fact, the owner was BSP winner in the 80's or 90's.