Weaning off of the Toy or Food in Obedience - Page 2

For the record, my dog does not lean on me in OB.  It's a point deduction as well in IPO.  He is close and he may touch me (which is part of the finishing work) but there is no leaning.  Focus should never be penalized.  I took that dog into an AKC Novice 4H alumni class and scored a 198.5.  He also just earned his BH a couple of weeks ago with only a critique of his crooked front in the recall. 

That sounds about right, ML. I never thought of it in that way.

You can still build the faith back, it's more work but it can be rebuilt.  Key is in teaching your dog how to handle a correction (question nobody asked but should have) and then tricking them into believing it's gone when it's not.  Not gone as in no reward, gone as in no possibility of reward. 
 

I understand what you're saying in concept, Matt, but still don't see it much in practice.

I didn't think your dog was crowding you. Mentioned that to Keith to let him know that it would not be a good thing to do in the AKC OB ring. I lost 4, 5 points for a dog that did that to me, but he clearly leaned against my leg so hard that he actually pushed me physically. I've had some "interesting" experiences with dogs, the most embarassing when my very first OB dog left the ring on the heel free to eat a kid's ice cream cone. Another time the same dog wizzed past me on the recall. I had to run all over the Civic Center in Phillie until I finally caught her. She died with one leg and believe it or not, a 198 at her first trial. Talk about a false sense of security LOL.

Your correct Keith.  Most stop the training with the ball hidden under the armpit or the pocket and never finish it. 

I am with Keith Grossman on this one...

why do you feel it’s necessary for the dog to be weaned off of the toy at all?

I train with people who compete on different levels and in different sports but the one thing is common is that we all use rewards no matter were we are in our level of trialing. I have found that to much repetitive training kills drive. I rarely will ever practice a whole routine at one setting instead i tend to break up the different parts of the routine into mini events. I also prefer to train out of motion and have found that my dog stays in drive that way. I rarely ask my dog to perform anything: Heel, sit, down, cook dinner, from a still position. I want my dog very animated in power when we are healing, i want him pushing me the entire session to get me to engage in play or for a food reward. On Average i have 7 - 12 short training sessions a week with my mutt and of those my dog may perceive 1 - 2 of them as containing some type of obedience/training. He and i are a team and he knows that if he performs tasks and commands in a way that i have positively marked them before then his reward is coming.

***Disclaimer - I did not come up with any of this on my own but instead i have stolen the ideas from those who have tried to teach and coach me.

First a question for you.  How long do your training sessions last- how many minutes long?
 

Rereading Cutaways post, I want to make sure we are on the same page.  I'm not weaning the dog off of his rewards or that he never gets a toy.  I'm weaning him off of the idea that he has to think I have it on me or he has to see it or he won't get the reward.  He always gets the reward for the work. 

Making sense.   I thought "the rule was" to get the dog to obey without reward.  Such a struggle for me.

now I know, don't eliminate the reward, just vary the timing so that the dog has faith it will come.

Great thread.  Thanks so much for the insight and help.