Line Breeding n Cross Breeding Opinion Required ... - Page 2

My only problem w ith line or cr,
oss-breeding remains "cow-hock" or the "K" legged dog. How did it crop-up or come about? with all these "in" and "out" crossing, can't it be wiped away?
Seeing supposedly handsome and beautifull dogs walking semi-crippled or bad at the back legs kills my heart for this wonderful breed, but 70-80% of FADs walk so, . . . so painful to imagine.

Breeding and genetics are not so simplistic, they are a Science and an Art. Line breeding is done to set type, but along with the desirable attributes you are attempting to set in your breeding plan you might be increasing the chance for any undesirable traits. Neither line breeding or cross breeding on their own increase the occurance for cow hocks unless that is what you are trying to breed. I know of no breeder letting their standards fall in attempting to breed for color, it may seem that way to someone that has not learned the complexities of breeding or is making assumptions while viewing things from the outside, but responsible breeders should be breeding for the total dog, not learning each point by trial and error. We have a standard and color and pigment are part of it and all other things being equal you would breed to a black, or bicolor, or sable, or black and tan, or black and red, you would not breed to a blue or a white or a liver because it would cease to be a German Shepherd Dog. The standard lists colors and markings that a German Shepherd dog is supposed to have along with descriptions of temperament and structure, if you ignore any of these you are not trying to breed a German Shepherd dog. Joanro gave the top priority for any breeder, that of temperament and nerve because you can improve on structure but I doubt if you could restore nerve and temperament once they are lost.

One thing I would add to Marko's post....an off color (white, blue, liver) is still a GSD, but is sub-standard. And I agree with him 100%, once nerve strength and temperament is lost, it is very difficult to restore. That is not to say that both cannot be "improved" upon. Loss of the character of the GSD is loss of the breed, no matter what the structure may resemble.

Markobytes and Joanro, excellent posts, excellent content

Ibrahim

Marko- I have to 'respectfully' disagree about no one breeding for color. You are lucky you don't know any of them.
    A large percentage of the showline people, do in fact breed for color,  I believe that is the main reason the GSL dogs have such bad conformation. The redder, the better. 
     Not all of them. There are a great deal of breeders that do take pride in their dogs, and actually do care about the breed. BUT, there are equal numbers that do not, that have traded the wonderful attributes that make the breed what it is suppised to be.
    Shit, a few years back, one of the top contenders in the show world was caught dying their dogs.Not because they didn't care about the color.
    One must ALWAYS put the nerve, strength and temperment in the forefront when breeding German Shepherds, but I think there is more consideration needed, when one wants to breed correct, in EVERY ASPECT, German Showline Dogs.
    You must aquire your dogs very carefully and only from someone that shares the Iideals and wishes to preserve the breed for what it is, a working dog.
   I myself love the GSL dogs, but you can believe I proceed very carefully in my choices when breeding a litter. I don't want to be part of the problem with the breed.

Hey Kitkat, I am going to disagree with you. It isn't only SL breeders associated with breeding for color. I would say there are quite a few so called, WL breeders who select for Dark Sable, Bi-Color and Black. 

Actually bee, regardless of what most say, when ever they are planning a breeding, you can believe the color of the pups is considered.
Working line people want, as you said, sables, blacks, bi, and blk& tans, and the showline people  want the red and blacks. That is a necessity if you want to be successful in the show ring. NOT required to produce great dogs.
   How many times has it been said on this forum, that a black dog or sable dog, is not going to fare so well in "the show ring", regardless of the conformation, or how well they strut their stuff.
    I do however feel that it is the choices made to build on color in the GSL dogs, that has, lets say, led to their shortcomings, Iin SOME instances.
    

Thanks again joanro so much got ur point

Best to you in your endeavor, Pakistan Kennel.

Kitkat the top breeders talk about what their dogs are producing in terms of drive, temperament, trainability structure, coat type, and yes pigment but not at the exclusion of the other parts of the dog. Color is a factor because it is part of the standard. The conformation is what it is because that is what it's being bred for. The kennel that got caught coloring their dogs did so to get an edge on the rest of the breeders that were not coloring or specificaly breeding their dogs for color. if they were specificaly breeding for color they would not be coloring their dogs. The sable in my avatar did well in the shows she was entered in and is V rated. Sometimes placings are earned and sables and black dogs don't do well because of their structure or lack of training, not because of their color, black dogs have the added difficulty of needing dark eyes to match their pigment. I attended a large regional show last year that included some of the top kennels and a black female took first place in a very tough class. A sable took first place in a recent Siegershow in a large class. Color is easy to see for people that do not see shoulder angulation or know what a croup is and the assumption is the dog got it's placing because of it's color. 
     Pakistan Kennel I don't know if your original question has been answered and forgive me for derailing your thread because it thought I needed to address a mis conception. By crossing lines I assume you meant bloodlines and not show/work crosses but I am not sure. Your original question deserves and requires a more in depth answer than what you received. I am glad Joanro put things in perspective because a breeder first must know what is going on inside the head of the dog.