How do we rule out HD and ED ? - Page 2

By the way, if you think I am kidding about standards, including health and size, take a look at the ad today for puppies 5 weeks old and the male HUGE, who has been bred, but now is for sale. Want to bet on what qualifications that dog had to be bred, other than HUGE? What does that say? Makes me crazy.

Hodie, Why is everything about only money to you. Do you not own over 20 GSD's. This is a free country and people are allowed to breed if they want. I bet a byb as you call them who breed 1 litter and no more put out far less hd or ed dogs than you who breed all the time. Do you give your dogs away. NO. OH, so you charge money for them. Shame on you. I think diet and environment play a bigger part than most of you think. Even the SV thinks so. But, until a gene is found and people quit over working puppies and keeping them too heavy at the time there hips are developing, hd and ed will continue to hurt the beloved GSD. I have over 30 years experience with this breed and I don't have the problems of 1 or 2 pups a litter developing hd. Do I breed magic dogs, NO, I just breed good WORKING dogs who have proved themselves in real working situations and I have far and I mean very far less hd puppies than you big time breeders who charge thousands of dollars for your pups. The shepherd is a working dog not a show or even a SCH dog, this is just another way for people to make money off of a dog that was breed to protect and herd. Better the breed by not breeding so much and make sure the parents have proven themselves and have had no hip trouble themselves. My thoughts on that. GOD BLESS

This is the second time you've thrown Hodie under the bus on this board, Mrgsd2006. Are you aware that most of the dogs she has are rescues taken in because those who bred them were not interested in doing the right thing? I'm not talking BYB's I'm talking breeders many of whom advertise on this board? Til you walk in the shoes of a rescue person, it might behoove you to check your facts before you post about a person who has saved a lot of GSD's over the years. I feel pretty sure Hodie would much rather not have over 20 GSD's. Maybe you can help her place some of them in appropriate homes or do you only think working lines deserve good lives?

Hodie, Thanks for taking the time to explain the environmental component to me. I am learning so much from so many here. Earlier today I was surfing the web looking at various US breeders. I came across one who advertised something like over 96% of all puppies from his kennel (it was a big kennel) received at least an ofa fair. I was really impressed. Then I got to the section on guarantees. Apparently they do not let puppy buyers submit xrays to ofa unless they have seen & approved the xray. Now, his % claim may be correct, but it's seems like a slightly slimey sales tact, & not very nice!

Another example of how easy it is to manipulate statistics. It pays to read the fine print, doesn't it?

MrGSD2006, you made a couple of good points in regards of keeping them to heavy etc. I personally agree, pups should be kept lean, but nothing wrong with with a little babybelly either. With the ratio that SV displays, one can believe it or not. My Vet, and he is heavily involved in the system of x-ray and the analysis of them, believes that these numbers are out of whack. My opinion aswell. That there is less ED/HD in workinglines, that would be nice, but hard to believe. At least, from what i hear, they have the same concerns as we showline breeders. What i disliked about your post was the personal attack, that was not called for and inapropiate. Hey Bob, hope you & family are ok. As usual good points, but this is exactly what drives me nuts..... you can do as much research as you want, check 150 Pedigrees, make lists of everything and you are 100% certain you did everything possible, and still your a** gets kicked ! Aslong as we have not all info, there is quite a bit guessing to it. What gets me too is we all know the statistics are there, and i take it as a orientation, but not for making a decision, whether to take this or that dog for breeding. Ulli

mrgsd2006, since you seem to want always to pick a fight, I will answer only briefly as I have no interest in wasting my time with someone who does not bother to know what he is talking about before jumping on someone. First of all, I have bred three litters in my life, a total of 12 pups. I own all but two of those dogs. Though I have excellent dogs, all who are in training or are titled, I rarely breed because I do not believe that most people should have a GSD or will provide appropriate homes for good GSDs who are, indeed, working dogs. I have done GSD rescue for almost 10 years. In that time I have placed more than 450 GSDs. About 1/3rd of all those dogs were actually in my custody before placement. At present, I have many dogs here who are rescues that will live here the rest of their life and for whom I will have to care for all their lives, at great expense. So yes, it does all come down to money, but I think you make a lot of assumptions about how my money is spent. Since you know how many dogs I have here, I presume you think you know me. I bet you do not really know me, because if you did, you would realize you are way off base. If you want to discuss HD or some other subject, fine, do so. But stick to facts. As for the dogs I have bred, all twelve of them, as I said, ALL, including the two I sold, have been x-rayed and NOT one was dysplastic. PERIOD. Further, every single one of my personal dogs has been x-rayed. NONE of them are dysplastic either. sueincc, your research on a breeder making a claim of such a high percentage of passing OFA fair or better, but not allowing submission unless approved by the breeder could mean that the breeder wants to make certain the x-ray really was taken properly, or it could be that yes, they do not submit some. So that would certainly be something I would be asking about. Again, garbage in, garbage out. Until a large and comprehensive database exists on a given dog and its' progeny, one can only wonder how complete the data is, and therefore, wonder as to how useful it may be. As Ulli says above, one can try to do the right thing and still have problems. But so many people don't even try. That is the sad part.

I have a question concerning requesting puppy buyers to xray their pups, and then giving a refund back to them when submitted to OFA. First, what if the pup failed? Do you then give them their entire money back? Second - if you end up with one pup that does not pass ofa - do you never breed the sire and dam again? Just curious as I have a female (who is spayed) that had her hips xrayed at 3 and was told she has HD in one hip. Is this different then crippling Hd that I have heard about in a young pup vs. the kind my adult was diagnosed with? My 14 year old shepherd hips are giving out and the vet said it is due to HD. Can I assume that she would have failed OFA if I would have had her xrayed when she was younger (also spayed) or is this something that is happening because of her advanced age? I am by no means advocating breeding dogs without OFA certification. I agree that gathering the data can prove useful, Just trying to see what would be done with the information once it is compiled. Is one pup produced with HD and or one pup produced with EPI too many????? Is it the combination of the Sire/Dam or them individually?

Renofan2, Your questions are excellent questions and are exactly the kind of questions that beg an answer. But you will likely get different answers, depending on who is answering. I would pay for the x-ray for every pup I breed or imported and ended up selling *(which is extremely rare) and if a pup was sold as being free of HD as states my contract, then yes, I would give them their money back. But I would NOT require them to give me the pup back. Generally people do not want to give up a pup. If the pup was specifically sold for sport or breeding purposes, then I would also give them another pup free of charge from the next mating. As to whether to breed the sire and dam of that pup again, I would have to know more about the exact type of problem on the xray and specifically would want to know more about the history of the sire and dam, their siblings, there parents etc. I believe even from HD free dogs, it is possible to throw a pup who is dysplastic. I do not believe it is common, but it is possible. So, in the strict sense of the word, for me, I would have to have some really compelling reason to ever breed these two dogs again together. If say a second litter with a different mate produced the same or similar problem, I would probably never breed that dog again. But that is just me. As for your female who is 3, it is difficult to say what her hips would have been like had she been xrayed at an earlier age. I would bet that she was dysplastic all along, but yes, age can make things worse as can activity level, poor nutrition, excess weight etc. There are probably many thousands of dogs who are born with dysplasia however, in the strictest sense of the word, who never exhibit signs of disease until xrayed. As for your 14 year old, again, not enough information is known. What was she like when younger? What kind of activities has she participated in? She is a very old dog and she has lived a long life. One would expect that most dogs her age would have some signs of arthritis or dysplasia by age 14. And most vets use those two words interchangeably, even though that is not really correct. The bottom line is that we do not have the answers to your questions. While I would not again breed two dogs together who produced a single pup in a litter who was dysplastic, or who ended up with EPI, others would. As a minium, I would want to ensure the affected pup would not be bred, but again, I am strict about how I would sell a pup so I would hope I would have some control over this, but many things can happen, and most people do not even bother to do sqaut about the dogs they breed once they have sold them. You have posed excellent questions and they are certainly issues all breeders should have given serious consideration to before breeding.

Mrdsd, I believe that you are correct regarding diet and environment having a strong role in the incidence of HD. With regard to BYB's: first of all the term is not an accurate one since nearly ALL of us are hobby breeders which means that we generally have kennels adjacent to or behind our homes. Second, the fallout of casual breeding without stringent selection criteria is far greater than just a few joint deformities. With regard to Hodie, having shared several threads I can say with some confidence that Hodie is quite different than you seem to think. Best Wishes, Jonah