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by Hired Dog on 07 January 2014 - 16:01
Hundmutter, I am not a "sport guy", I am a WORKING dog person. I could care less what this person breeds, no need for courage here when none is needed, this is what I believe, just like you believe what you want to.
Indeed when it comes to working dogs/breeds, working only is what matters, everything else is secondary. As far as it being cold inside or out and this "off training their dogs", this is like a Mantra in here....except, if everyone was outside training their dogs, you and others would have no one to argue with in here, yes? Speaking of training, is it cold there too?
Indeed when it comes to working dogs/breeds, working only is what matters, everything else is secondary. As far as it being cold inside or out and this "off training their dogs", this is like a Mantra in here....except, if everyone was outside training their dogs, you and others would have no one to argue with in here, yes? Speaking of training, is it cold there too?
by Jenni78 on 07 January 2014 - 17:01
Linda, I don't think you're very familiar (in a hands-on kind of way) with some of the top Malinois and Dutch Shepherds and their enthusiasts...or you'd have a different perspective, I think. The FACT is that MANY of these dogs are not registered in the manner that YOU seem to think appropriate, ie, you think that makes them "mutts." It's been this way for a very long time, and when you look at, say the average GSD or "Alsatian" in the UK vs. your typical NVBK or KNPV dog...well...let's just say you're going to have a tough time winning that argument with that crowd.
by Hundmutter on 07 January 2014 - 17:01
Yes, well, not too cold but windy and wet, and my one dog is eleven.
I think he deserves his retirement. He has been walked and played
2Ball with 3 times already today, he'll get another walk before bedtime.
I realise that stuff gets said over and over 'like a mantra' on here, but its actually
the first time I have used the phrase, in two and a half years. It just bugs
me that instead of tips for breeding well, outside the registration system,
or advising on what the OP needs to know about FCI and KNPV insofar
as her working (LE?) dog is concerned, people would rather moan on about
how awful and useless it is to breed "within the rules". She does not appear
to have even decided, yet.
You repeat the old saw about how the breeders of the non-registered dogs
know their bloodlines, know "the pedigrees they deal with" - and I am sure
that is true for some of them and for a limited number of generations. But
its funny how they often still rely on the recorded information for the dogs beyond
Gen 3; and my experience of unregistered 'breeds' [for all purposes] has
been that if you have never had that structure it becomes difficult to trace
back in-breeding or genetic diseases, or correct Titles if you are into those,
when you are wondering if Grandsire 'Rex' was Fred's Rex, or Tony's 'Rex', or
Mary's 'Rex'.
You both came across as arrogantly claiming that no one should bother with all
the 'breed' based stuff you regard as so much, often damaging, nonsense.
But just what does a Koerung consist of when applied to a dog with no papers, and
whose owner / handler has no interest in whether he has 2 ears, 4 legs and one tail ?
And I'll ask again what I asked on the KNPV thred, after the Rottweiler man's "I have
a dream" video: just what part of being first and foremost a shepherds' assistant
results in a pooch acting like a crocodile ? I'm not 'anti' work or sports dogs, but I do
believe in 'live and let live', and therefore anyone who wants to register - and/or show -
a dog, whatever their reason, has the freedom to do that, without reading gratuitous put-
downs. If you "care less" about how & what WorkingGirl3 might want to breed, and you
have nothing else to contribute, why did you bother to post on this thred ?
For chrissakes, I COULD have posted something on the lines of "Oh, no, you must
stick to registered stock if you are going to breed ('cos I'M right) ...", but I didn't. Linda.
I think he deserves his retirement. He has been walked and played
2Ball with 3 times already today, he'll get another walk before bedtime.
I realise that stuff gets said over and over 'like a mantra' on here, but its actually
the first time I have used the phrase, in two and a half years. It just bugs
me that instead of tips for breeding well, outside the registration system,
or advising on what the OP needs to know about FCI and KNPV insofar
as her working (LE?) dog is concerned, people would rather moan on about
how awful and useless it is to breed "within the rules". She does not appear
to have even decided, yet.
You repeat the old saw about how the breeders of the non-registered dogs
know their bloodlines, know "the pedigrees they deal with" - and I am sure
that is true for some of them and for a limited number of generations. But
its funny how they often still rely on the recorded information for the dogs beyond
Gen 3; and my experience of unregistered 'breeds' [for all purposes] has
been that if you have never had that structure it becomes difficult to trace
back in-breeding or genetic diseases, or correct Titles if you are into those,
when you are wondering if Grandsire 'Rex' was Fred's Rex, or Tony's 'Rex', or
Mary's 'Rex'.
You both came across as arrogantly claiming that no one should bother with all
the 'breed' based stuff you regard as so much, often damaging, nonsense.
But just what does a Koerung consist of when applied to a dog with no papers, and
whose owner / handler has no interest in whether he has 2 ears, 4 legs and one tail ?
And I'll ask again what I asked on the KNPV thred, after the Rottweiler man's "I have
a dream" video: just what part of being first and foremost a shepherds' assistant
results in a pooch acting like a crocodile ? I'm not 'anti' work or sports dogs, but I do
believe in 'live and let live', and therefore anyone who wants to register - and/or show -
a dog, whatever their reason, has the freedom to do that, without reading gratuitous put-
downs. If you "care less" about how & what WorkingGirl3 might want to breed, and you
have nothing else to contribute, why did you bother to post on this thred ?
For chrissakes, I COULD have posted something on the lines of "Oh, no, you must
stick to registered stock if you are going to breed ('cos I'M right) ...", but I didn't. Linda.
by Hundmutter on 07 January 2014 - 17:01
Jenni, I'm not trying to win an argument, I'm trying to get them to see
they don't have the ONLY opinion that's valid. Horses for courses.
BTW when I make comparisons with eg an LEO Mali, or a KNPV dog, I do
so while looking at either dogs imported from, or exported temporarily to, Germany
for IPO training & competing; or at an IPO club dog IN the UK; or one which is an
operational UK Police Dog. That is not the same as looking at a S/L "Alsatian"
and drawing comparisons, honest !
they don't have the ONLY opinion that's valid. Horses for courses.
BTW when I make comparisons with eg an LEO Mali, or a KNPV dog, I do
so while looking at either dogs imported from, or exported temporarily to, Germany
for IPO training & competing; or at an IPO club dog IN the UK; or one which is an
operational UK Police Dog. That is not the same as looking at a S/L "Alsatian"
and drawing comparisons, honest !
by Hired Dog on 07 January 2014 - 17:01
Hundmutter, I came in here to support what apple was stating, thats it. If I were you, I would listen to what Jenni said, she knows what she is talking about. I will leave you with this though...there are breeders who breed STRICTLY non registered, mixed DS/Malinois dogs and will not even consider anything else because they get the best results from that.
It is very cool here too and I am thinking of doing some training before it gets hot again tomorrow, have a great night!
It is very cool here too and I am thinking of doing some training before it gets hot again tomorrow, have a great night!
by WorkingGirl3 on 07 January 2014 - 22:01
Let me start with, haha. You guys just made my night...
Thank you for the insight, and yes I am very lost when it comes to the Dutch registry or lack of. I think I do understand it better now.
I agree with both sides here. I understand that good working dogs do not always come from registered stock in many breeds besides our shepherds. However, I do not always agree with breeding two dogs with no known parentage history just because they themselves are awesome. I think it is important to know the history of your dog before breeding them if it is at all possible. I do want to breed my Dutch if he continues to do well working and or in sport. I just do not want to be irresponsible about it. I want to make the best informed decision I can and in MY opinion IF a dog can be registered it should be if it should ever be used for breeding, if only to keep track of the bloodline and genetic defects.
I live in Canada. He came to me from Missouri and before that Texas and they imported him from Holland. I am going to try to get a hold of the importer and see if I can get any other info. I was told he was used as a stud for two litters. I had him chipped when he moved in. I will have to look into what kind of chip readers read Holland microchips, as I know the ones available around here do not. It is entirely possible I may be able to figure out his pedigree.
So is it safe to conclude that it is not unethical to breed an unregistered Dutch Shepherd IF they are an excellent example of the breed? And of course with proper health testing. I would be allowing another breeder to use his services. Someone that is reputable and has proper homes for the pups. ***I am using the term "unethical" in a general sense as we have already covered the point that papers don't mean jack to a good working dog.
Thank you to all of you for your input. It was ALL very helpful.
Thank you for the insight, and yes I am very lost when it comes to the Dutch registry or lack of. I think I do understand it better now.
I agree with both sides here. I understand that good working dogs do not always come from registered stock in many breeds besides our shepherds. However, I do not always agree with breeding two dogs with no known parentage history just because they themselves are awesome. I think it is important to know the history of your dog before breeding them if it is at all possible. I do want to breed my Dutch if he continues to do well working and or in sport. I just do not want to be irresponsible about it. I want to make the best informed decision I can and in MY opinion IF a dog can be registered it should be if it should ever be used for breeding, if only to keep track of the bloodline and genetic defects.
I live in Canada. He came to me from Missouri and before that Texas and they imported him from Holland. I am going to try to get a hold of the importer and see if I can get any other info. I was told he was used as a stud for two litters. I had him chipped when he moved in. I will have to look into what kind of chip readers read Holland microchips, as I know the ones available around here do not. It is entirely possible I may be able to figure out his pedigree.
So is it safe to conclude that it is not unethical to breed an unregistered Dutch Shepherd IF they are an excellent example of the breed? And of course with proper health testing. I would be allowing another breeder to use his services. Someone that is reputable and has proper homes for the pups. ***I am using the term "unethical" in a general sense as we have already covered the point that papers don't mean jack to a good working dog.
Thank you to all of you for your input. It was ALL very helpful.
by Hundmutter on 08 January 2014 - 04:01
Great to hear, WG, I think you have a very balanced attitude !
Best of luck with your Dutchie, whatever you end up doing,
including breeding on him if that is what you decide to do.
Glad you enjoyed the posts so far, personally I think we could
probably have done without that little 'spat' but those two really
got up my nose last night - I went to bed worrying it would put you
off PDB, but apparently not, I see !
BTW, "Welcome aboard", stick around for more laughs.
Linda Swift
UK
Best of luck with your Dutchie, whatever you end up doing,
including breeding on him if that is what you decide to do.
Glad you enjoyed the posts so far, personally I think we could
probably have done without that little 'spat' but those two really
got up my nose last night - I went to bed worrying it would put you
off PDB, but apparently not, I see !
BTW, "Welcome aboard", stick around for more laughs.
Linda Swift
UK
by Hundmutter on 08 January 2014 - 04:01
HIRED DOG I know there are. And I do not take any issue with that.
But just because that is what they want to do; [ and it provides others
who feel the same way with pups to carry on with;] does NOT give any
body a monopoly on every Malinois - as a member of its Breed; or Dutch
Herders, as a breed; - and it certainly does not give 'apple' or you any room
to suggest, therefore, that nobody else should have anything else to do
with those breeds or that there should be no attempt to keep the separate
breeds going. Which is what you two are saying boils down to in the end.
Let's not forget, I am a Shepherdite, so I have been hearing all this stuff
about working the breed for decades. (Also note that some of the Dutch
"mutts" have a noticeable amount of GSD in their ancestry ...) There are
different definitions of work. As someone who is more interested in IPO &
in GSDs, than in PPDs, KNPV etc, I can still appreciate the performance of a
good tough and fast 'maligator'; what I don't want is a world in which there are
no options. And I don't want some totalitarian telling me that's all I'm gonna get,
cos in his opinion (and its invariably a him) what others do with their namby-
pamby dogs who can't work properly has 'ruined' all working dogs and shouldn't
be encouraged.
But just because that is what they want to do; [ and it provides others
who feel the same way with pups to carry on with;] does NOT give any
body a monopoly on every Malinois - as a member of its Breed; or Dutch
Herders, as a breed; - and it certainly does not give 'apple' or you any room
to suggest, therefore, that nobody else should have anything else to do
with those breeds or that there should be no attempt to keep the separate
breeds going. Which is what you two are saying boils down to in the end.
Let's not forget, I am a Shepherdite, so I have been hearing all this stuff
about working the breed for decades. (Also note that some of the Dutch
"mutts" have a noticeable amount of GSD in their ancestry ...) There are
different definitions of work. As someone who is more interested in IPO &
in GSDs, than in PPDs, KNPV etc, I can still appreciate the performance of a
good tough and fast 'maligator'; what I don't want is a world in which there are
no options. And I don't want some totalitarian telling me that's all I'm gonna get,
cos in his opinion (and its invariably a him) what others do with their namby-
pamby dogs who can't work properly has 'ruined' all working dogs and shouldn't
be encouraged.
by Hired Dog on 08 January 2014 - 09:01
Good Morning Linda...thank you for your response. First, I am a Malinois person, always have been, always will be, but, that does not mean I cannot appreciate a good working dog regardless of the breed. I currenty own a GSD as a matter of fact and I am training him for work.
My "beef" if you will with these breeds is that they are WORKING dogs, first and foremost, not pets, not anything else. This same belief holds true for any of the working breeds out there...if your lab cannot jump into a frozen lake and get that duck you just shot, its not a lab. If your BC cannot jump a paddock 5 feet high, sideways, to get to the next corral and herd, its not a BC, etc.
ANYONE who has a need for a working dog should have all they want to do with these breeds, no argument there from me, but, if you are looking for a pet, there is an entire class of dogs that were bred just for that.
The creator of the GSD, your breed as you put it, pleaded to "keep my dog a WORKING dog" and its the "non totalitarian" view that has diluted and is continuing to dilute working breeds all over.
Lastly, when it comes to WORKING dogs, there should be no options, they should all be able to work, thats what they were bred to do, that is why we created them. Have a great day and thank you for listening.
My "beef" if you will with these breeds is that they are WORKING dogs, first and foremost, not pets, not anything else. This same belief holds true for any of the working breeds out there...if your lab cannot jump into a frozen lake and get that duck you just shot, its not a lab. If your BC cannot jump a paddock 5 feet high, sideways, to get to the next corral and herd, its not a BC, etc.
ANYONE who has a need for a working dog should have all they want to do with these breeds, no argument there from me, but, if you are looking for a pet, there is an entire class of dogs that were bred just for that.
The creator of the GSD, your breed as you put it, pleaded to "keep my dog a WORKING dog" and its the "non totalitarian" view that has diluted and is continuing to dilute working breeds all over.
Lastly, when it comes to WORKING dogs, there should be no options, they should all be able to work, thats what they were bred to do, that is why we created them. Have a great day and thank you for listening.
by apple on 08 January 2014 - 10:01
I will just say look at all the registered SV showline GSDs with all the requirements mandated for breeding.
I would also say to the OP, get some other opinions about your dog's working ability and thoroughly test him in different situations to weed out potential temperament/drive/nerve issues. If someone with a lot of experience tells you the dog is breed worthy, then check out the hips/elbows/spine and try to learn something about the dogs behind your dog. That will be a challenge in itself, because you really won't know the potential recessive and dominant genes for temperament/drive/nerves.
I would also say to the OP, get some other opinions about your dog's working ability and thoroughly test him in different situations to weed out potential temperament/drive/nerve issues. If someone with a lot of experience tells you the dog is breed worthy, then check out the hips/elbows/spine and try to learn something about the dogs behind your dog. That will be a challenge in itself, because you really won't know the potential recessive and dominant genes for temperament/drive/nerves.
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