please explain ? ? ? ? - Page 2

Kenny, i was reading your last input about the training of Ernst. Now i read this, where you state that you spent considerable amount on a female and male. If you plan to breed with Ernst, my advise would be to reconsider. Even if Ernst has a1 hips, with the hip result his ancesters have, there will be a GREAT posibility for the pups of your breeding to have these problems. The first and foremost task for a breeder should be to do all he/she can, to rule out genetic issues, aswell as healthissues. By breeding with Ernst, this will be at best a gamble. Ulli Dresbach

Ulli, thanks for the info. thanks for the information and advice. i'm not going to breed my dog's for sale, however i will breed them. I am well aware of the "breeding business" and know that it's not a get rich industry for a person like myself. i am spending a considerable amount of money on my dogs, like i stated b-4 ernst primary reason for purchase is to "protect my family" also he will be the stud on my females first breeding, as non of these pups are being sold. i will be giving a few of these pups to long time friends of mine and they will be made well aware of the genetics involved, but also i can see what my dogs produce first hand this way, and also see first hand their health. i also plan on keeping a couple of pups for myself to work with and learn the aspects of training, at which point i will provide these dog's to deserving people i know also for free. It may seem crazy to some but i know full well what i want to do, and have a plan. but again thanks for all the advice and it is welcome good or bad. kenny

Kenny, If money is not a concern, you might want to think about looking for 2 adults that are either already titled or ready to be trained to their titles. They would, of course, already have hips and elbows done. Speaking from experience, you are much better off to buy your breeding stock from lines that are known to produce a high percentage of normal hips in their offspring. I would never buy breeding stock from lines that are questioanble in that area. Ulli has been around the block a few times and if he says the lines you are looking at are not good for sound hips, I'd listen if I were you. The ZW rating doesn't always tell the whole story. Trust me when I tell you there is nothing more heartbreaking than to have 2 of your buyers call you in tears saying the puppies you have bred need to be put down since they have no hips sockets. Been there, done that with a litter out of 2 generations of OFA dogs. It turned out that the g-sire's hip history was not good. I would never make that mistake again and always try to share that horrible experience hoping it will help another breeder rethink their breeding plans if necessary. If I would ever decide to breed a litter of GSD's, I'd either buy or lease a healthy adult bitch with titles and clear hips and elbows. I'd also want an CERF eye exam although most GSD breeders don't seem to think that is necessary. It would be a concern for me since I know GSD's with cataracts and PRA do exist. Good luck in your search.

blitzen, well all of you thanks for the help and as i've stated i'm not bent on breeding these 2 dogs, i may, i may not. i'm not against paying and using a stud dog and probably will do so. I'm just saying what if? and trying to learn. or see what you the public here with way more knowledge than me thinks. which way's heavily on what i decide. as for my male, i bought him for a purpose, that purpose is not breeding it's for family protection! atleast now i have a pretty good idea of what will happen. so again thanks for all the input and it is stored in memory for future use. thanks everyone for your insight and experience it is helping me "understand". Now i wonder? Why would someone in europe under the strict breeding codes/ethics there have bred these lines, i'm assuming knowing the outcome? I'm sure there are plenty of opinions on this, and want to hear them, especially if your from europe or know breeders there, are there different code/ethics for different countries, say czech vs. hungary? and what is the difference between sz, wusv, mnjk, i know about the akc/ckc, and american associations, but would really like to learn more about the european assoc.for future reference? again thanks to everyone

It sounds like you have made a good choice, Kenny. It's not often that so many here agree on the ethics of the same breeder.

Blitzen, Would you care to mail me ? Ulli Dresbach Ulli@vom-sankt-martiner-tal.de

Kenny, as i am from Germany, and i am a breeder, aswell as a breedwarden (SV), i will try to explain 1-2 things to you. Here in Germany we have pretty strict rules in place for breeding and breedingstock. These rules and regulations are indeed enforced. Everey breeding that takes place should be recorded with the SV, you can check all breedings out in the Decknachrichten. (Catalog of breedings, that have taken place under regulations of the SV, published, i believe monthly). How east european countrys handle this stuff, i dont know, but i assume, their rules and regulations may be not as strict as the one s here in Germany. However, in one post you state that you will breed the animals you bought and that Ernst will be the first stud for your female. Next comment you will not bend backwards with the breeding thing. Nice that you are not in it for the money, but the friends of yours becoming possible dysplastics dogs, wont givw a rats a**, when they have to deal with this prob. Now, whatever you do, is up to you. It is not my place to judge your doings, and i wont. What i will do, is point your attention into the facts, you have at hand. Look at the pedigree of Ernst : GreatGreatparents : 8 dogs; 3 of them a1, 4 of them a2, ¿1 not rated. Greatparents : 4 dogs, 2 of them a1, 1 of them a2, 1 of them a3 Parents : 2 dogs both a3 ! Take a close look, Grandparents Fatherside : a1 & a2 produced a a3 ! Take a look at Grandparents Motherside (and i believe the motherside to be very impoetant): a1 & a3 produced a3 ! Can you see how the reproduction, got worse instead of getting better ? No matter to me if you sell your pups or keep them all, but to take a risk as you are about to take, is against the wellfare of the animals produced. This method has nothing to do with breeding, its called producing. Wish you good luck with encounters, and hopefully you will return safely and healthy from your deployment to your family. Ulli Dresbach

oskar, i did email you. i also have looked at and taked at leght with others that have seen sire and dam with excellent hips produce hd pups? so yes i understand there are no garuntees to what i produce! but then again a more expensive dog with excellent hips doesn't garntee producing no hd in a letter either right. like i've read here many time it's alwasy's " a crap shoot" so if i produce a litter that is hd then i know not to breed these dogs again,, unlike many breeders i've seen and didn't give a sh!t what they were "producing" as long as people would pay for their rather good looking pups/dogs. I on the other hand am trying to do "the right thing" and do the research b-4 hand. i've also read here many times that breeders don't recommend paying big $$$ for a stud on a bitches first litter? so why the conflict? i know everyone is " trying to better the breed"? so if this is true why are there any hd gsd's out there? breeding is not a science just because dog x and dog y don't have hd and breed doesn't mean they will produce a litter free of hd right? or has someone figured out how to play god with these dog's and produce only the healtiest dog's on earth? sorry to go on a rant but i'm trying to learn and in the sv standard it does state a dog of a3' is still within the "standard " for breeding, so if you a breed warden are against it maybe you should and others should push to have the standards changed? just my .02 thanks kenny

Kenny, my grandfather used to breed, and there is one saying of his that i do remember : " Put the BEST together, and HOPE for the best!!" Your statement about a1 producing a3 or worse hips is nor entirely correct, one have to take not only the parents into consideration, no, you should also check siblings of parents ( also their offspring), on the male side, progeny he produced and on and on...... So, lets see ..... I am not saying that your male will become displastic,or thta i will state that his offspring will be displastic, but he carrys the genetic possibility of this happening in his genes, period. He became it from the fatherside aswell as from the motherside. And if he is not the one giving it to his offspring, the grandparents may just do the same thing. All iam saying is, you do increase the chances of having displastic dogs. You are right, the a3 dogs are "noch zugelassen", and i do not see the need of changing the standart, as the most breeders ( in Germany ) will stay away from a a3 stud, unless they have a very good reason to use a a3 stud. The guys doing these things to bring out and carry on certain traits, but they are most of the time breeders with 20-30 years of experience. My understanding is, you are at the very beginning of this, would not want you to be dissapointed with your first litter. Regards Ulli Dresbach

thanks ulli, i respect that your not "that guy" . regarless if it is the 1st or 5th litter i breed ther is going to be disappointment, because i doubt anyone can do this without disappointment.Sir i'm in iraq i fully understand dissappointment. but i aslo look at things' this way. i don't think dog's should be kennel dogs. i think if people had less dog's breeding and more''pets'' that also work or whatever there would be less disappoinment all around. i've looked at tons of sites and went to many breeders places, and have found that i never want to be like most of them. i think anyone that breeds should be limited to dog's on hand.not to exceed a number deemed to provide a "better life" for the dog's owned and bred. i will never own more than 4 dogs. i'm not asying that pups maynot stay around longer, but hey 4 just seems the magical # of dogs i can care for and still have fun with and have living in my home! if people were caged for a while and only let out for a few hours a day maybe they'd see it differently. as i don't think these dog's are happy to just be caged and let out to train or have their kennel cleaned. one day i may change my mind but i doubt it. i only see when i retire and have the time to have more dogs around because i have a bigger home for me and them that this will be different. now take what i say with a grain of salt these are my beliefs and mine alone. i'm sure there are some breeders that kennel dogs on a rotational basis but this to me is still unacceptable, as what would you think if you were kicked out of your home on a rotational basis and secluded for that short time? kenny