Degenerative effects of Inbreeding - Page 2

Well I understand what Echomeadows is saying, I know there is a lot of corruption I have seen supposedly titled dogs consistently fail the bitework at shows and even worse (as results are published) pass with pronounced for just biting the elbow of the sleeve with just the front teeth or very half hearted defenses, so I also like to know a dog personally before using it for breeding. Having sad that I would not use an untitled male. We all know our own dogs and I think we can judge from puppyhood whether they have suitable temperament or not, but other people and potential puppy buyers do not know them, so by using titled dogs we are offering some kind of guarantee even though it is far from 100% reliable.... Going back to the original topic, Jose Tinoco is absolutely correct. These are just a few of the problems known to be associated with inbreeding in various mammals including cheetahs, lions and wolves that happen where population size has become very small, almost always due to human activities, and individuals are forced to breed with close relatives: Small litter size Increased incidence of still birth, young born with deformities and neonatal deaths. Fertility problems including sperm abnormalities and decreased motility, cryptorchidism and monorchidism (testicles don¿t descend) Blindness Increased susceptability to infectious diseases, cancer etc. Increased incidence of hereditary diseases and congenital defects. It is no coincidence that mongrels are fitter, healthier, longer lived and more fertile (in general) than our pure breds,it is something we should really bear in mind when considering our breeding options. I am not saying we should ignore the potential value of linebreeding - but be careful!!

The close inbreeding responds for many of the problems of shy dogs and for many of the health problems the breed is affected today! First the breeders say " I will try to breed concentrating the blood of this stud, maybe I will get a good showdog too!" The super dog does not born and the same breeder or the buyer keeps the ideia, "Now I will ad an extra charge, I will breed concentrating in this other dog present in its pedigree, and generation after generation the process is keeping going! Now there are some dogs that are very fragile, the are alergic, shy, have weak ligaments, weak nerves, all kind of problems! because the genetic concentration had bring all the deffects to come up! WHAT ARE WE DOING? The Working line is less affected because the dogs are been tested every generation, the DDR bloodline had a clear purpose too! Why shouldnt we from the Showline take care of our genetic? Are those goals in the showring so important that justify the loose of the caracteristics of our breed for the work? Is a dog that cant work a GERMAN SHEPHERD? I dont think so? even if it looks like one it will be just a simulation! The real one can work!

When I posted this topic I was ready to receive critics, I was thinking those who use this method would start the critics, I had a very good surprise to see many breeders think the same way and supported me. Thanks to all of you! If there is people thinking like that we have time to change the process, breeding with serious and criterious methods we can preserve our breed. I hope we had more working line dogs here in Brazil, so I could use it in my breeding program. I will keep up with this ideia and please help! Do it too! There will be a time that people will understand what we are saying! Who knows the SV (a Very well organized association) wakes up to the problem and starts to diversify the lines and to give more value to workability by showing dogs while working and by the presence of working proves in the shows.

An interesting topic Jose.....Many showline dogs do have good temperaments, just make sure to only use the best of them in your breeding program......the problem is that so many showline breeders succumb to the temptation of picking the puppies to keep on the basis of best structure and colour rather than best temperament, convincing themselves that these will improve in temperament with maturity, good traning etc. Many of these puppies compete and do well in shows until they are 24 months then they disappear, but behind the scenes they are still used for breeding, even if they do have weak temperaments. In this country many females and even some males are bred without titles. At least here in Ecuador and probably in Brazil?? maybe USA?? several imported dogs from Germany with apparently good pedigree and structure also have disappointingly weak nerves, but they always manage to get their KKL1 somehow and many breeders still use them for their ¿important bloodlines¿ or nice colour, or structure and these breeders do often have a lot of success in puppy classes. (I am not talking about all imports, there are a few with v.good temperaments here). I have also seen owners spend many $$$ and months and months training a ¿difficult¿dog just so he can pass the bite work and get good show results and many breedings but in reality they are doing nothing but hiding the temperament deficieny the dog has and will inevitably pass on. It is particularly difficult for us to avoid inbreeding in countries like Ecuador, and probably Brazil due to the limited number of stud dogs available, especially when you eliminate those with weak nerves, as any serious breeder should..... The advantage of a small country and GSD scene is that its relatively easy to attend all shows and judge for yourself a particular dog¿s temperament rather than relying on published show results only. The other problem as Jose mentions is hips, I find few breeders here take the time to consider the ZW of the dogs they use and I have seen many linebreedings done that I would never consider based on this, and I am sure that this increases the incidence of dysplasia we have in the country. Breeders in general should think more carefully about their long term goals rather than short term success in the show ring.......and congratualtions to those who are attempting to help diversify bloodlines, we really need this...

Good thread, José. A good recent example is the Ursus Batu. The Ursus has produced several fine dogs, especially the Yasko Farbenspiel. Due to his heavy use he has no doubt imprinted some lines with all of his qualities, both good and bad. And his influence will not weaken and eventually disappear until at least four (4) or five (5) generations have passed. We had a thread the other day about the relative worth of titles when selecting dogs for a breeding programme. Does a V- or VA- title alone make a good breeding specimen? Does a Kkl1 rating alone make a good breeding specimen? Does a repeated 300 score in SchH3 done in different trials alone make a good breeding specimen? I think the answer to all of these is a resounding NO! Now, go to my previous paragraph and substitute the word "breeding" with the word "marketing". Now, I think the answer becomes a resounding YES! Our selection of breeding stock should be for the production of the correct dog to the F.C.I. standard, and we should shout "Damn You!" to the whims of the S.V. and the A.K.C. Produce an animal of correct health and temperament by the one (1) standard, and not the interpretation by the large breed clubs. To borrow an expression-refuse to be a victim. José, the comment about the puppy maturing to be a marvelous protector of home and family-I have been asked that a few times when I sold a puppy. My answer is that if the dog will furiously bark then that is usually sufficient, and if one needs more security, then that person needs to purchase a sidearm and learn how to use it correctly during an emergency. I tell the people that the chance of an untrained dog providing thorough protection of their lives over his is basically 1%. It happens, I know. And that is a fortuate thing for the dog's lucky owners. Good thread, Bob-O (ranting Bob-O)

Bob-0, I actually teared up reading your post !! You get it !! Thank God someone with substantial knowledge in this breed gets it ! Not that I ever doubted you, Never Never in a million years would I doubt you, Just that once again you have profoundly stated what needs to be heard ! You are the holy grail of GSD knowledge !! not that my opinion counts for much anymore. But WOW Thank You for your thoughts Bob-0 I always look forward to your posts !!

Bob-o: Its like the girls in Hollywood: they are all pretty to look at but they are all basket cases and have mental breakdowns, at the flip of a hairbrush, cant stay married, can stand correction, cant stand pressure of the Tv life or Movie world , so the overdose, go anrexia or become druggies......drink and go a moral, and the gsd inbreeding lines to get beauty not working traits and secure nerves etc are like those hollywood babes......an example only,,,dont sue me for comparisons.....