Why the sudden increase in grip for this? - Page 2

Chrisine,
Another excellent post!  

 if a dog is biting in defense and isn't getting any response (having success through the bite), then the dog is more likely to shift his grip to try to have more effect on his opponent.

Well trained and genetically good dogs will dig deeper to get a desired response.  We have dogs in our unit that will push deeper on a bite suit if the decoy does not respond.  This is partly genetic and partly from good training.  We teach dogs to push deeper on the bite and consistently push in to the bite.  We have a Malinois in our unit that digs so deep into the bite I'm always amazed at much of the suit this dog can swallow.  If he doesn't hit a bone or a nerve through the suit he goes deeper till he gets a "real" response.  This often leaves me pretty bruised.  For what I do, teaching a dog to hold one spot and dig deeper has a lot of advantages over the dogs that shift and re grip looking for a sweet spot or a more advantageous position.   

Looking at the grip and the dogs reaction is like having a crystal ball and reading the dog's mind....For those that can see it.  
 

thank you both for the responses, blackthorn i always admired you and your breeding, so much to learn always. Need to start getting my dog back into shape, she use to go on forever and never get tired now she gets tired much faster, its been a lazy winter. Her and the cat just kinda laze around a lot. I need to find a clean lake. I was also worried about her paw for a while so i tried to keep her exercise as less as i could.  The ring sport people really seem to think shes a porker even tho she only put on like 3 pounds.

has had a quick question why is it ideal for the dog to be in prey and defense gripping power? It seems dogs switch a lot back and fourth between these when dealing with a good decoy. Never seems like just one drive. JMHO  Just the enraged dog and attack was just a bit excessive/extreme from what I normally or ever see in training. I have not got to see many dogs work in PP yet though in person other than my own and a handful others that were being trained for real.  I see some tested and many other breeds being baby trained like dobies and rotties but I didn't really count those as real pp training more confidence boosting exercises as those dogs are never going to learn how to bite a person. Ive been to many sport clubs (only to view never to particpate as it is not my thing) but those dogs don't ever get pushed that way that ive noticed.. Many on video but im sure if a mistake happens like that people don't record such events.


Hoping to do more suit work next time get tired of the same upper body work.  I think we were suppose to work on long bites on the jacket again. Or hidden sleeve work not sure.

The dog saw the kick just as an action in the fight over a prey in this case the leg and this always firms the grip.The dog was not in a defensive frame of mind as you might think.
All the best
Ulf

A good decoy working a good dog will always be playing with and shifting a dog's drives back and forth. Ideally, the dog is "driven" by several motives when facing a decoy.

A dog always (and only) in defense will eventually lose heart because there is no win and the decoy always comes back (next training session)--there is no win. Defense is a "stress" drive--not a stress relief (like pursuing prey).

A dog always in prey -- sometimes this can work well, if the dog's prey drive is very, very high. But the dog is out there for the joy of the prey -- what about when the decoy stops acting like prey. What about on a strange field, strange location, at night, and suddenly the prey picture isn't the same. What is the dog going to fall back on? What if the dog is genuinely hurt (a broken toe or pulled muscle or the decoy slips or steps on a foot with cleats)?

A dog always in fight -- often starts to lose clarity and if the fight drive is high enough, is out there fighting for the fight--and it can begin to not matter who the fight is with--decoy or handler. Also, I see fight drive as more of a transitional drive--it doesn't seem to "burn hot" for long periods, so it needs to be sustained by prey, and sometimes, defense.

A good decoy can move a dog through these drives and then give the reward at the moment that is most meaningful for the dog and that will increase a desired behavior. Decoying isn't about grandstanding--it's really the heart of bitework training.

All of these things affect the bite/the grip--and rewarding the desired grip is what creates and sustains a good working dog through years of training. It's *never* finished--every encounter teaches the dog something.

FWIW, I'm not a decoy. I don't have the strength, speed, muscle memory to do it--but I spent years watching and learning from some excellent decoys from all over the US and visitors from Europe--and I paid attention when my dogs were worked and when other dogs were worked. Doing protection sports should not be about showing up and letting the decoy "do his thing" to your dog while you stand there and look pretty and talk to your friends on the sideline. You should know what your decoy is doing, why, what he is rewarding, what the moment of reward is, why each action/motion was made--and what it is teaching your dog. Pay attention--you may not be the one sweating and getting bruised, but it's YOUR dog--you should be learning these things too.

Christine

Good posts in my opinion. Just to add this about fight . there is a big difference in a dog fighting to survive or fighting to win, and it is evident in the weakening of the bite.

Also you might add muzzle work at sometime as the dog progresses.

Hank

I thought the dog was supposed to bite harder when it was hurt.  Isn't that what the decoy is supposed to be teaching the dog - that if it gets hurt, the correct solution is to bite harder?  Shouldn't every dog trained in police work think that if it keeps biting harder, it will eventually win?  When the dog is biting, isn't the decoy supposed to put a little hurt to the dog until it bites harder, at which he rewards the dog by stopping the hurt?  I bad decoy can ruin a good young dog by hurting it too much and causing the dog to ease it's bite, teaching the dog that when it's hurt, it should back off.

yeah sometimes when my dog is biting a decoy they will hit her on the back or whip her a few times she doesnt ever let go though, not even when the stick was smashed over her by mistake, shes not handler hard at all either, I just thought when dogs got in defense the grips became chewy and frontal because i heard a few people say it I guess the dog being in a state of fear. When she gets defensive like on that day her ears go back and teeth start to show but her grip also gets stronger. Shes also had a lot of bite work done on and off with me for about 1.5 years? and then she trained a lot before I got her which was mostly green puppy training and very little defense. While shes attacking and fighting shes getting praised like hell. I havent seen her ever try to back off or avoid yet or show fear she always wants to go back for more like begs for it.   It can happen tho I think a god decoy with experience will prevent that. I wouldnt do serious pressure with a decoy that lacks experience. Or any pressure.

I had a male before that would run if a man came running at him with a stick screaming. 

Hey desert dog.  Yeah I have ordered a muzzle its just hard to find one thats nice and fits as stores dont sell them so i never bothered with all that. We did a lot of pretend attacks out in the woods having a muzzle might have been a lot better cause the decoys can never get that close, she always trys to nail them.  The ring trainers here just order it online for their mals. I just ended up doing the same. it will come in a few weeks hopefully.