OK help me evaluate this bitch - Page 2

Thank you everyone and Workingdogz, that was very detailed and helpful.  What to your experienced eyes seems obvious are things an inexperienced eye might not even see at all.  These details (rather than just conclusions), are really helpful as I know the sound of the bark, the set of the ear, the tightness of the lips, the amount of teeth showing, the eyes, the grip, the tail all speak but newbies to protection even if we have years dealing with "problem" German Shepherds don't see what your trained eyes see.  Thank you all again for taking time to teach.  I appreciate it!

It is pretty interesting what can be 'seen' when one knows what
to look for isn't it? At first quick glance she would appear to a
novice to be a very strong dog indeed. It's said time and time
again, dogs simply do not lie. This dog is a perfect example 
of what good training can 'overcome' or hide, but the genetics
won't change with all the training in the world. 

Thank you all for the comments, which I believe are accurate. The bitch was bred to a "strong" dog. I have seen videos of other "bitches" from this breeder and one of the characteristics of this line is that the bitches are very friendly (wag their tails like labradors!)....which may correlate with the bitch not being very aggressive.

People always ask, why did you not research before buying the pup. The answer is that when the research was done, my knowledge base was much smaller. Only after obtaining the puppy and after reading many GSD boards and books over the last year do I feel I know enough to make a good buying decision. The experts always see more than a novice from the video.

My own pup is good, but he is a companion and home protector. I know he is not a sport dog, but I think he will be a good natural protector based on his nature and pedigree.

Unless you get really lucky and find a true mentor, very hard to aquire the knowledge as well.  In fact, I would venture to say there are some that never see what the dog is telling them.  Of course great trainers do.  For the rest of us who really want to learn, very hard to find.  Some clubs don't teach those kind of things.  Just be a tree...or do A B and C, but never how to read the dog.  I wish every video that is posted had people who can explain how they came to the conclusion.  I really believe truer words were never said..that dogs do not lie, if only we knew what they were saying.  I hope before I die I will get half as good as Workingdogz and Slam and others at doing just that.   I tried to pick my own dogs, not just on lines, but also (and even mostly) based on real world experiences (like Mahan's daddy not because he is a Leefdaalhof son, but because he was a police K9 that won dog hero of the year and proved himself on the street.) and was hoping that I got the same character.  It sure would be great if the things you know how to look for were taught the same way we learn how to handle a line, or teach the dog to fuss.  Anyway, thanks to all of you!  Don't forget when you answer there are hungry people out here wanting to learn all we can! 

H4J,
Thanks for the nice words.  You learn by doing, but it definitely helps if people take the time to explain things.  It often helps if a trainer can explain what he wants done and why.  I am a firm believer in taking the time to explain my methods, or reasons and what I see in the dog.  Especially if the dog has issues.  I have been to clubs where the TD gives orders, the handler holds the leash and the decoy is told what to do.  The handler never really learns what is going on how to read their dog because it is never explained.  It becomes very difficult for some one new to the sport and they wind up completely dependent on the TD.  

The best thing you can do is watch all of the dogs and see the differences in working them and the dogs reactions.  Too often people come to a SchH club and work their dog then stand around talking and not watching the other dogs and handlers work.  You can learn a tremendous amount by watching other handlers and their dogs.  You can good techniques and pick up pointers.  You can also learn what not to do and what people are doing wrong or things that you don't like.  I watch every dog in training that I can, I watch every handler do detection with their dogs and I can call the alerts often before they do.  I find it fascinating to watch dogs work and it is a great learning opportunity.

I have even been yelled at and told, "Don't ask questions and if you don't trust the trainer, don't come here"  by a NEW person who never titled any dog!  (And they were not the trainer, either)  I just said I need to know what we are doing and why (Not in the middle of training, before and after)..what is the goal, what problems do we see, what are we working on, etc.  This even happened when the trainer was later removed from the club for causing problems in dogs.  I never understood what is the crime in wanting to know more so I could be a better owner, trainer etc.!        

As Slam mentioned, you learn by 'doing', these things have to
absorbed from the sideline of the field, standing at the edge of
the blind, and from the end of the leash. There is no textbook or
school you can go to learn this kind of stuff, it's just hours and
hours and hours of standing on the sidelines and getting your
self and dog out there too. It's also a very eye opening experience
if you have a chance to stand in the blind itself (or out on a field etc)
with the sleeve on yourself, and take bites from a couple different types 
of dogs. Just like dogs don't lie? Well, good helpers 'see' all too 

If someone told you to 'not ask questions', I'd find another place to
train. A TD or helper should easily be able to tell you the who, what,
why, where and when of what they would like to do with YOUR dog.
If thats a problem, I would not work with those type of people.
NO training is better than shit training, so, if you have to maybe only
go once or twice a month to a really GOOD helper, you will accomplish
more in those one or two sessions than you will with a mediocre or 
worse helper. It's worth the time and drive to make your way to a good
helper open to working with you and your dog. Take responsibility for 
you and your dog. 

Slam is very right in what he said, don't stand on the sidelines talking
about, 'ohmygawddidyouseewhatwasonthedatabase'?
Watch others work with their dogs, in all phases, when you see an
overall picture of teamwork you like, go ask that person how they got
that 'picture'.  Ask for their help. 

Where are you at H4J? Perhaps some good people are around you that
you don't even know about...

Everything you and workingdogz say in these last couple of posts
makes perfect sense Slam.  So much wisdom in such compact
form !  Would it surprise either of you to know that some of us
would say exactly the same about the Show ring ?
People could learn SO much more about what they are doing, about
the breed as a whole, about individual dogs - if they'd only shaddup
and listen and watch properly.

Slam said- " I find it fascinating to watch dogs work, and it is a great learning opportunity".


If you really read his words, .......(Statement Analysis).... what he is really saying is ....

- I have  a passion to work with dogs
- I actually "watch" dogs/handlers work
- I take the time, and have the intelligence to understand that I can learn something new to improve my skills from each opportunity I  encounter





Stay Safe Jim

Have a Wonderful Christmas


Kim & the K9 Pirates

Apples and oranges in terms of learning to read a dog or understanding the capabilities of a dog. Which I thought was the purpose of the OP's request. You may could make the case that the show ring could help a person with learn correct structure, but the premise that an individual can learn a lot by watch the proceedings in a show ring is somewhat difficult to comprehend . Entertaining.....maybe.