DVG vs USA - Page 2

We just had a USA trial and had GSDs, boxers, rotties, dutch shepherds, giant schnauzers, and bullies. I have trained with both, and guess I don't think that the attitude of the club memeber has anything to do with which group they are affiliated with. I like that we can pick our judges in USA as we are a small club and we can get one that we can afford the transportation costs for. I've only been in the sport for 11 years, an infant by many standards, but I only wish the 3 organizations would work for the betterment of the sport together.CH

so do you think that usa is more competitive at the higher levels? I've only been two usa events and see those types pf performances as top notch. do dvg comptitor show at the same levels? also it seemd like dvg is more fun and people oriented and usa seems more competition driven. does that sum it up?

I think DVG is just as competitive. I think the difference is even at the highest levels people help each other. I saw the same things when I showed horses years ago. The breed shows were snobbier. The top level national competition open shows were more competitive but people helped and gave moral support to each other more.

I just looked on eBay to see if there were any copies of Gary's book on there, but no such luck. Now apparently there is a dog / cat artist / humorist by the same name, and lots of stuff by him. But Gary Patterson was a Denver, CO area attorney and Schutzhund was his very serious hobby. I have not heard anything of him for a very long time now, but I've been out of the loop, myself. A lot of the old-timers are gone now. Time passes so fast. I believe that Susan Barwig was on record as writing the first complete book on training the Schutzhund dog, and I know that she's been dead and gone for several years, now. I went to one of Gary's seminars once, and it was very good. This was probably some twenty years ago, and I would have put him at a very healthy-looking 65 years, back then. Don't know if he's still with us. But I think that some of the books these people wrote may still be in print. One of the real neet things that GP pioneered was blindfolded tracking, and using a guide stick on the collar to teach the dog to stay right on the track. He broke with a lot of really good ideas and theories. He was a thinking trainer, and you don't see many of those. His ideas really worked!

Oops.. Let me clarify that Sue Barwig wrote the first complete Schutzhund training book in English, so far as I know. The first real book written in any language on Schutzhund / military / police training was Herr Konrad Most, and that is still a classic, worth reading today. From time to time it comes back into print in English. The man was a genius. There is simply no argument to that...and a pioneer. If you ever get a chance to buy this book, "Training Dogs" by Most, by all means DO!

A few things I've picked up over the years, certainly not a comprehensive list. USA trials do have MANY breeds, and it seems that you see that more and more. DVG trials obviously do too. It seems to be more rare in a WDA trial, altho I have seen it. You must be a member of USA to enter a USA trial. To enter a DVG trial you must be a member of DVG or USA - this may also apply with the other breed clubs (USRC, AWMA etc, but I"m not sure). To enter a WDA trial you don't need to be a member of anything as long as you have a scorebook of some sort. Ah, the scorebooks. If you are a member of DVG, you MUST use a DVG scorebook, even if you also have a scorebook from another organization. Some organizations will sign in several scorebooks, some organizations won't allow it (as I understand it). USA and WDA offer conformation events, and DVG does not. To compete at the DVG regionals and nationals, you must be a member of DVG. They also have a dress code for regional and national events (ie. no training vests!) - khaki pants and a white shirt for obedience and protection. They allow you to wear 'grubbies' for tracking. USA has a very thorough rule book - with titles offered, how they are scored, diagrams, and nearly everything you can ask. DVG has a link on their website to the English translation of the VDH rules. WDA has just added a brief outline of the trial rules on their website. USA has a very nice, professional magazine, with lots of articles, reports, photos, ads, litter announcements, and so on. The WDA has a short newsletter. I'm not sure if the DVG has a publication of any sort. Judges - I have trialed in USA trials under USA, SV, and FCI judges. It's probably financially easier for many clubs to use USA judges, but other than that, there doesn't seem to be a preference one way or the other. WDA trials seem to almost exclusively use SV judges. I believe (and correct me if I'm wrong) that the DVG assigns you a DVG judge for your trial, ie. you can't request a particular judge. What has bothered me about DVG trials is that in several cases the judges were almost *too* down to earth - wearing jeans and sloppy shirts, smoking, and swearing in their critiques. I know this is NOT the case with all DVG judges, but I was very suprised the few times I witnessed it. USA, WDA, and DVG all have helper programs, but right now you don't have to be certified to work a DVG local club trial. DVG also has a "training director" program that they are either starting soon, or is just getting going over here in America. To me (and again, this is my experience, and not necessarily representative of everywhere) USA trials show the highest level of training and competition.

In my experience, after 12 years in Schutzhund at both USA and DVG, because DVG is a smaller organization, there is less depth in the competition. At the top levels, the two organizations are competitive with each other and often, the same people compete in both organizations, at least in my Region. DVG has a publication, put out six times a year, mostly dedicated to reporting scores of trials and info from the National meetings and from Germany, which is DVG's parent club. DVG has had a helper training and certification program long before USA even thought about it. I'm pretty sure that DVG helpers need to be certified, even at the club level, and helpers are pre picked for National and REgional competitions. This can lead to politics, but also hopefully good helpers at even the Regional level. GARY PATTERSON is still around!!!! And alive and well in the DVG organization. His wife Carol is a judge.

wscott, are you the same Walter Scott from the Raleigh Schutzhund Association?

yes sir

copied and pasted from DVG America trial rules "G. Trial Requirements Helpers are no longer required to be certified to work local trials. However, Germany requires that the level of helper work be of such quality that is expected of a Class 3 helper. If a non-certified helper is used in a trial and can not or will not perform at a level expected of at least a Class 3 certified helper, the trial judge shall excuse that helper. If the host club does not have a competent substitute helper, either certified or uncertified, the trial must be canceled."