One of the worst cruelties to dogs - Page 2

GSDsRock

Sorry, I didn't understand the circumstances, but with the minimum of background information it seemed like someone else would have been involved in the placement - and when that is the case there is almost always a retrieval option. Our UK rescues are nothing like the US ones appear to be, but those who are involved in rescue on this board seem amazing.

I don't think anyone intends to slam you, I know I don't - and if the person who has the dog is knowledgeable about GSDs  then I agree 100%, she needs to step back and take a good hard look at the situation and not let it get out of hand, there is a tipping point afterwhich it can be harder to retrieve the status quo. That would be unfair on both dogs concerned and also on the owner that gave the dog into her care in the belief that she would have a good forever home in her new family.   Am sorry to hear this is not working out so well.

 

My husband was extremely uncomfortable giving a hard correction with a prong collar to our young male GSD, Bosco (who is very dog aggressive). Martin has a really gentle soul so he felt it made him a terrible person to give a hard correction (ie. a dog abuser). Nothing I said to Martin would change his opinion until I walked Bosco past a notorious fence fighting dog in our neighbourhood. I had zero issue with Bosco - we paused directly in front of the ballastic dog (who was foaming at the mouth he was so enraged), did some basic obedience, and walked back to Martin. I handed Martin Bosco's leash and told him to repeat what I'd done. It was ugly - Bosco went ballastic and Martin clearly saw the consequences of his refusal to correct Bosco. I prefer motivational dog training methods (ie. positive) but aggression simply cannot be tolerated. We still have work to do with Bosco on his dog aggression issue but we're making steady progress.

GSDsRock, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out you are talking about me. I have only spoken to you twice (I think) since you brought Maya here. You called me last night remember? I didn't call you complaining I had a problem with Maya. But since I had you on the phone I asked for some advice. Big mistake because now I am being crucified on PDB as being an unfit owner. Nothing could be further from the truth. I am quite capable of caring for Maya.

I will gladly reinburse you for the money you spent on Maya. Let me know how much I owe. You were very kind to help out. Thank you. I am sorry I posted a thread about the spray shield you suggested. My bad.

I have nothing further to say. I will not tolerate being crucified when I have done nothing wrong.

Sue (triodegirl)

Steph, I don't think that's necessary. I suspect reports of this dog being in need of a different hand may well be quite premature.

Sue (now that you've identified yourself), I made it clear in my posts that you are otherwise taking excellent care of Maya, and that you are a fine person. Those are my exact words. I'm very sorry your feelings are hurt. But it will hurt a lot worse if Maya is seized and killed because she bit your ex when he tried to break up the inevitable fight between Maya and Trigger, or because you end up in the hospital with a bad bite. You are a very kindhearted person, and I understand that disciplining a dog is hard for you. That's why I recommended the citronella spray instead of an e-collar. It doesn't hurt (although an e-collar doesn't hurt either at low levels), and it's easy to use. It is also incredibly effective in getting the dog's attention and respect in many cases. Given Maya's temperament, the spray is likely to work very well with her.

I cannot explain Hexe's cruelty to you in deciding to announce to PDB who the posts concerned. As I mentioned earlier, I help a lot of dogs. On PDB, I recently offered to pay for boarding two shelter dogs until transport could be arranged, and I currently have an offer out to help pay for a desperately needed spay for a pyo dog. There was nothing that identified you in my posts. Again, I have no idea why Hexe decided to humiliate you by identifying you. You have every right to be upset.

My intent in posting was only to try to save Maya's life and to save you from the heartbreaking loss that will occur somewhere down the road if you do not get control of Maya. It was the only option I had left to try to communicate to you how serious this problem is. I've seen too many good dogs die because their owners could not get control of them. I know how much you love Maya and Trigger.

You have nothing to apologize for, and you don't owe me a dime. I hope you’ll spend your money on the Spray Shield and (if it works) a remote controlled citronella collar.

GSDsRock, you can't title a thread "One of the worst cruelties to dogs" and then claim you've said the owner is a fine person taking excellent care of the dog "otherwise". 

It was a over-the-top post to make, period. Key-rispy crackers, she's had the dog all of what, a few weeks?  No one is or would deny you were EXTREMELY gracious and generous in helping this dog, or any of the others you've offered to help.  It just makes it all the more confusing why you'd make such a dire prediction regarding a situation you haven't seen, and may be making out to be much more than what it actually is.  Do you really think triodegirl wouldn't recognize who this post was directed toward?  And that no one else would recognize it either?

If triodegirl feels I did something to hurt her, I DO apologize, because that wasn't my intention--but hell's bells, who jumps on here and makes an accusation of 'cruelty by omission' when they've spoken to the person twice, and only once did that include discussion about the interaction between dogs?

Steph, thanks for the offer. Your rescue is one of the "good guys"! BTW, one reason you are able to do rescue so effectively is because you've had the good sense to not become a tax exempt group. That leaves you the flexibility and freedom to do what's right in each situation instead of following some rigid list of rules. In this situation, however, I'm hoping that the dog's owner will do what needs to be done. Carry on!

Hexe, much cruelty to dogs is unintentional rather than deliberate. That is the whole point here. "All-positive" training is often extremely cruel, because it often leads to the death of the dog. Case in point: I was asked to evaluate a charming Sheltie-Basenji mix for adoptability. I gave the dog a good evaluation with the caution that the new owner would have to stay on top of the dog because of dominant tendencies. I stayed in touch with the dog's new owner and provided some very effective long-distance training advice. When the dog started chasing and hurting her cat, I sent her an e-collar with instructions on its proper use. The owner was at first very reluctant to use the collar (she thought it was "cruel"). When she finally got so mad at the dog that she was ready to use it, the dog immediately stopped chasing the cat. She never had to use the collar. Why? Because the dog realized that the owner wasn't kidding around anymore about the cat chasing, and the owner was acting like a leader. Then the dog started lunging and barking at visitors--just trying it out to see what happened. The owner didn't want to bother me, so she consulted an expensive "all-positive" "behaviorist", who told her to throw treats at the dog when he lunged and barked in order to "distract" him. After being repeatedly rewarded with treats for aggressive behavior, the dog quite predictably became more aggressive. The "all-positive" trainer shook her head sadly and said that he couldn't be fixed (if she couldn't fix him, he was unfixable), that he was a liability and must be miserable, and that the only kind thing to do was kill the dog. I found out about all this after the dog was dead.

Kind people who do not control their dogs are unintentionally treating the dog with potentially lethal cruelty. These owners are often wonderful human beings who want only the best for their dogs. I completely failed to communicate this to Maya's new owner despite repeatedly trying to do so. I consider myself at fault for this.

I spent the better part of a day with Maya--at the original owner's home, at the veterinary hospital, at the new owner's home, and during a long trip to deliver the dog to Maya's new home. I also discussed the dog's temperament with her veterinarian, who had known her since she was a puppy. Certain traits were immediately apparent to anyone with dog experience who has been paying attention. It was obvious that Maya is extremely intelligent, highly social, drivey, and perfectly willing to take charge if the owner doesn't act like a leader. She needed a prong collar to walk decently on a leash, and responded beautifully to a prong collar correction when she tried to bolt through a gate. She sat down, looked up at me respectfully and affectionately, and waited for a go-ahead. I also observed Maya's pushy interaction with the new owner's other dog for more than an hour. Given my experience with dogs, the warning signs were completely obvious. The dire predictions are based on dire reality. I have lost count of the dogs that have been killed because an owner was too "kindhearted" to control the dog. Hexe, you’ve never even met Maya, and yet you've decided that the situation isn't serious.

Moreover, Hexe, your cruelty to Maya's owner was deliberate and inexcusable. I'm sure Maya's owner recognized herself in the posts. I was hoping she would. I took time out of a very busy day to write the posts because I care very much about what happens to her and to Maya. The posts were deliberately written as a wake-up call, since nothing else had worked. The chance of anyone figuring out who the owner was, or even bothering to try to do so, was about zip. But Hexe, you just had to nose around until you figured it out.  And then you decided to humiliate Maya's owner by telling everyone on PDB who she is. I cannot even begin to understand why anyone would do such a rotten thing. Maya's owner did nothing to deserve being treated in such a mean way.

Even though you have never seen Maya, you have also encouraged her owner to blow off the situation. In doing so, you have increased the risk of Maya's death and the owner's heartbreak.

GSDsRocks....i think it was obvious to everyone who you were talking about, everyone except hexe was too polite to say it...I do see your point, and you have valid concerns, you done your job by pointing out what needs to be done the rest it up to her, she is now the owner of this dog....this may be just the dog she needs in order to grow in understanding of the dog and in order for her to "grow some balls"....i agree there is a risk based on information provided, but we all started somewhere....

i am a true "heavy hand" owner, i don't tolerate bs or disobedience...i ended up with a dog that I needed not wanted who was/is handler sensitive and holly cow did that open my eyes, that is how i found this site and forum when i was desperate for help/answers...she has not reached that point and hopefully by the time she reaches that point it will not be too late for dogs sake, but we all have to hit bottom in order to come up and yes i realize that it is not fair for a dog, but some people have to learn by making mistakes, after a fight or desperate moment she may just put her foot down and say enough is enough....also remember she has not had this dog long, it takes different length of time for different people to get a true understanding of a dog, heck it took me a good 4 months to get my sensitive dog, i kept thinking it was her not me....

give her your support, give her advice, share your experience and point out things that you see....it is a learning process, its a growing process...give it a chance.

"everyone except hexe was too polite to say it"

Lady Frost, quite true.  I'm not polite. I'm direct. Good, bad, whatever, I own that, and I'm ok with it.  And for heaven's sake, GSDsRock, I didn't have to 'nose around'.  I had to do nothing more than freakin' READ your own dissertation. Perhaps if you hadn't felt compelled to put in damn near every detail possible save for photographs of them all, it wouldn't have been so blatently obvious.

NEVER did I say the situation was or was NOT that serious--and I'm pretty damn sure triodegirl isn't going to put this dog's life at risk after everything it took to bring her into her life. NEVER did I make any evaluation of this dog, and NEVER did I say anything that could even remotely be construed as 'blowing off' whatever situation may be occuring.

I've also NEVER counseled someone to 'baby' a dog instead of making a real correction to a problem.  I've said it here before--I cut my teeth on Koehler and Strickland, not Pryor, and I'm not ashamed of that, nor of still using what I learned from them. I don't believe in a single-item toolbox when it comes to training.

I'm done with this. triodegirl, if I owe you an apology, just say the word, and I'll publicly do so. If there's anything I can do to help you with anything, PM or email me.  Personally, I have faith in you that you'll do right by both dogs and yourself.