Dominant Dog Collars vs. Dogtra Remote Collar - Page 2

LEAVE ME ALONE TONY..and AS FOR YOUR P>S , SOMEONE ELSE MUST BE MESSEN WITH YOU I HAVE NOT DEFILED ANYTHING OF YOURS NOR ANYONE ELSES .KEEP LISTENING TO THE VOICES IN YOUR HEAD  PAILFACE. IF YOU DIDN'T RUN SO MUCH SMACK ABOUT EVERYONE YOU WOULD NOT HAVE TO WORRY WHO WAS OUT TO GET YOU AND YOURS.NOW HOW BOUTS YOU GO TRAIN A DOG .OH RIGHT YOU HAVE A BAD BACK YOU CANT TRAIN A DOG. ALL YOU CAN DO IS WRITE THINGS ABOUT PEOPLE DOING NASTY SEXUAL THINGS WITH DOGS .RIGHT THEN ASK FOR ME TO BE BANNED . AS MOONS WOULD SAY    SSDD

TONY SO WHAT ..SSDD

Sam1427,

I am very interested in your post and the post by Nancy.  I am new to the clicker training but have been doing marker training for almost 20 years.  The trainers for Hamilton County Sheriffs office taught me the marker training. 

I have been making sounds too and I have learned that the dog picks up on the sounds and praise quickly.  Here is what I have concluded based on my experience, academic research, and talking with others:

1)  Marker and clicker training work well with a dog that is soft (does not like correction) and the training is for basic commands or tasks;
2)  A hard (can take corrections one after another) probably needs a little extra stimulation either with vibrate or nick;
3)  Either a soft or hard dog that is high in drive and has an issue that needs correcting probably will not respond to the clicker or marker training. (to Nancys point).
For example, I have a Sch 3 female that probably could easily be a detection dog.  She is ball crazy, tough as nails on defense in bite work, and is soft to correction.  She has shown some dog to dog aggression when run upon by "yard" dogs inside invisable fences.  I had to use a continuous correction to get her to stop it. 

Thoughts?

SAM1427,

I almost forgot.  I use a dominant dog collar as a back up just in case I run into an issue on a walk.  I had to use it once and it worked really well and the correction only lasted 3 seconds until submission.  I have used these collars on and off over the years and prefer the pinch. 

What are your thoughts on application of the dominant dog collar?  Some old timers call them noose collars.

Even if you use the ecollar ala Leerburg  for correction you may want to consider lou for dog agression and crittering.

His technique requires some serious set up because you have to stim the dog at the first sign of acknowledgement of the other animal. I had one of those dogs that was not deterred by an electric cattle fence and even jumped straight up and kept chasing when hit with very high stim - once the drive had been engaged she was hard as nails.

Same dog, with the controlled set up - and the tiniest continuous stim just when her eyes locked on prey - and timing is citicial - we used chickens because she had already gotten hold of one - - - and I could walk her right in the middle of them after two training sessions.  You could see her thinking after that - even with no collar - those ears would flick, she would pause, and walk off. I think the low stim is low enough the dog stayes clear in the head.

I'm used to the old-school methods of compulsion training as well.

I'm curious about clicker training and its applications on dogs that started with other methods, and conviently enough it's been mentioned on the boards lately. I've never used it to any degree on dogs, but I'm curious the reactions.

I've always balked a bit at the notion of "all a dog needs is rewards" to train. I believe corrections have a definate place in training. But I figured I don't have a lot else on my plate this summer, so I might as well learn about some methods that I don't prefer -- just because I figure the more one knows about theories, the more I'll have in my toolbox incase I ever need it.

I am a firm believer in balancing discipline and praise as well, however, I find it is NEVER necessary to cut off a dogs ability to breathe during training.  I may not have trained a bunch of uber hardass working dogs, but I HAVE trained many, many agressive dogs on the verge of being PTS if the aggression cannot be corrected. I have not used an ecollar for agression, either (but I would be more inclined to use one than choking a dog out). Just a good old fashioned prong collar for correction and a muzzle if necessary. But I'm not talking sport dogs here, I'm talking rehabbing biters to live as companions, so I suppose that plays a large part. Just my two cents.

I am not sure.  On a hard dog (takes all coming corrections) I would agree.  It is the soft dog (does not like correction) that worries me.  My Schh 3 is a tough dog and hard as nails.  She has received 4 TSB "a" ratings.  However, she sometimes will not let go of a bite grip or ball grip.  A choke out with flat collar lifted works majic in that it does not reduce her drive.  An ecollar stimulus even as vibrate causes her to lower her drive. 

GSD Justice,  Dogs pick up on sounds very quickly. They hear much better than we do, after all. My dogs are trained to come to me when they hear two clicks. During tracking, an indrawn sharp breath or puffed breath can be substituted for a "seek" or "such" after using the verbal and the breath commands together for a while.  The definition of "a while" depends on the dog.

Training with food is a very quick and easy way to teach young puppies basic obedience commands. With a marker like food, you simply move the hand with food in it to shape the puppy's behavior. You can add a clicker for clicker training and click as soon as the pup does the desired action, then quickly give the food reward. Eventually, the puppy will work for just the click. At least that's the idea. With clicker training, you break the actions you want the dog to do into small enough chunks that you can click and reward until the dog gets that part, then you add another small part of the action. I'd rather just use a verbal command and do it that way. Okay, it does look impressive when I click my tongue a couple of times and my dogs come running to me, but a "Come!" or "Hier!" would get the same result.

Yes, I think clicker training works best with dogs that are food driven. And it probably works best wth dogs that are soft and don't take a hard correction well. I'll tell you why I think that below.

John, I think you could clicker train a dog in prey drive or defense if you wanted to encourage those drives, by having the dog associate certain actions with a click.  Obedience routines would lend themselves to clicking too.

Dogs in prey drive (ball chasers) or defense drive who are doing things we'd rather they didn't, like chasing chickens or dog aggressing (prey and defense respectively) would be harder to break of those habits with clicker training I think simply because the dog would be very focused on what he was doing and you'd have to get his attention first so he'd pay attention to the click.  I've heard people say they can train dog aggression out with clicker training, but it takes at least months or maybe even years. You have to observe the dog very closely and the second he starts to look at the chicken or the other dog, you have to click and get his attention to distract him. Often by the time we observe the subtle signs that the dog is going into prey or defense, he's already there and unwilling or unable to listen. These drives are both very powerful in some dogs and while it's fairly easy to use them in a positive way (schH training, personal defense), it's harder to make the dog drop out of them if he's using them in a negative way. A negative consequence like a stim, zap, or yank gets his attention much faster than a mere click. A soft dog is usually very reactive and notices a click. A hard dog focused on prey or defense is often going to ignore something subtle like a click.

I'm not saying you can't train out aggression or prey chasing with clicker training. I am saying that it takes more time - a lot more time -  than I would be willing to devote to stop behaviors that could be dangerous to the dog. There are quicker ways to get there. 

Nancy, sometimes dogs that aren't genetically clear in the head become hectic from too high an ecollar correction. With dog agression they can think that the other dog is somehow causing the pain and keep trying to attack right through a high stim. Some dogs become hectic from a prong correction, but not an e-collar correction. They all pay attention to a choke because they have no other choice. The best training and correction methods depend on the dog and his temperament and personality.

Interesting.  My most aggressive dog "snaps" into prey.  She does it in an instant and to some degree loses her mind.  Her defensive drive is even higher.

My other dog does not do this.  He is actually more powerful and more lethal due to his size and bite force.  He gets wired but I can call him off a Packen command with ease.  I did it today to show my wife the control a Schh dog needs.

The irony is that the correction levels needed on each dog are the complete opposite.  I wonder out loud why this is.  I have seen it in several GSDs I have owned before.  I know it when I see it but I just can't find a reason for it.