opinions on breeding to non-schutzhund "working" bitches - Page 2

if all health checks are taken care of and i know the breeding of the bitch...i'd want to see social skills and trainability,and a good pedigree.schutzhund is a great test(or was) but it's not a "deal breaker" for me if i know the bitch....can the bitch be approached without going nuts or submitting to a degree that i don't want to see with strangers,is she good with her pups,will she do what the handler/owner asks?if so...then i have no problems breeding to a non titled bitch,surely some will take offence at my view..but hey...it is what it is,this ain't germany! and if your goal is to sell to "working homes only",then good luck with that..people have access to vast amounts of info about suitable working prospects....some who may be new to working breeds may think that the only way to get a "sure fire prospect" is to select form titled parents,but i honestly don't think that's true...genitics (imho) tell the true story....put that pup in the hands of an experienced trainer and it's possible to see great results from a pup out of a "non-titled bitch"...my first working dog(enzo vom dunhill) was out of "a non-titled bitch"(enazus bianka),bred to an IPO-1 dog(ron vom peko haus)...great dog,a real monster in the bitework,with very good o/b....yeah..titles are great,and i'd rather see them than not..but it's not a requirement for me...good luck in your training.

A Schutzhund title is a work test, a quality control safety net to weed out dogs with temperament, character, drive and trainability deficiencies, a genione title determines that the dog's foundation is sound as a dog deficient in these areas will not pass and achieve a title. An untitled dog can mean it's untitled for a reason that the breeder is not disclosing in a dog that ultimately shouldn't be bred, with that said, it's advisble to determine that an untitled dog is in fact breedworthy and has the traits required.

 Rexy:

              I would agree with you until I with my own ears heard a Trainer,Competitor, Club Owner exclaim " IF your dog will eat a hot dog from my hand I can put a title on it". Kinda throws a wrench in your opening statement. Schutzhund was a breed test to test all those things you mentioned but has evolved into a sport.  

Depends on the individual dogs. Right now, most of my friends aren't breeding ANY dogs, or darned few, for fear the pups they produce will end up homeless in this economy. Not to say NO litters should be produced right now, but I'm wishing the pro's would find another way to suppport themselves, all OR part, besides breeding dogs right now.

Flame away. I'm not on here often enough to notice anymore. ;-)

Most Sch Trainers will "evaluate" your dog with no obligation and no fee.  Our local sch trainer here in the RGV Texas did mine.  He told me my dog was a well balanced dog and would make an excellent candidate for Sch.  If you are breeding for Pets, then that is what you need to look for, a dog that is "well balanced".   You can't tell how puppies are going to be as dogs until they are dogs.  And that is all on HOW the individual owners handle and treat them thru out their growing and learning stages.

A puppy can be calm submissive as a pup and by the time he is 8 months old, he can be very aggressive.   The breeding titles you mentioned in my opinion are only for those that want to make a larger profit from the sale of these pups.  A titled dog will sale for more money as will the puppies.  The big question here is What do you want for your dogs, and what kind of life do you see them having?  Answer that and you may find your answer to the breeding of titled to non titled.
Hope this helps.

Novembergray, just to answer your question: Yes, low confidence is an example for low nerves. That doesn't mean that a dog  with "strong nerves" can withstand any kind of abuse, though.
It begins with the breeder introducing the pups to all kinds of stimulation at the right age and encouraging the dog to watch and experience different stimuli. This is just an example and there is more to it than just this, but I could go on writing forever. The dog gains confidence in learning that good behaviour will be rewarded and bad behaviour will have consequences that the dog is able to understand. The consequence has to be within reason of the unwanted action (for a 4 month old puppy that could be no sit - no treat).
Physical punishment like it was "fashionable" in the 70's and 80's didn't work because most of the times the punishment was way to harsh for the dog and made the dog fearful instead of wanting to solve the problem. You can still see that with some "old-fashioned" trainers today.
So strong nerves in a dog, in my understanding, is a combination of learned trust in the handler and the ability to learn from consequences (those mentioned above and reasonable for the dog) and confidence in self to solve problems in training.


I don't think its a great idea to get someone Schutzhund-train your dog for you, but that's just my personal opinion.