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by StephanieJ on 12 September 2010 - 19:09
Kyle wrote:
"Here, you are referring to the "Sport" of schutzhund. Not, what I reffer to as the "training system" of schutzhund. The "Sport" has an end with the outcome being points and a picture."
There is no differentiation on the ahnentafel as to how the animal is trained. He attains the title or not-either through the "sport" method of schutzhund or the "training system" method. It reads the same on the paper.
Kyle wrote:
"The "training system" is the evealuation of the dog (the beginning) to see if it has what it takes to move on to security, police K9, SWAT K9, military K9 etc. During this evaluation the dog is tied out and challenged, without equipmnt. The dog is exposed to different surfaces, stairs, indoors, grips under a truck. These are evaluations of nerve. Just because modern trainers have changed their techniques to suit performance evaluations, does not mean the original purpose was false."
I thought we were discussing the viability of the hold and bark exercize as a means to evaluate, not slippery floors et al, none of which are part of the SchH test, and none of which SchH prepares the dog for, either through conditioning or genetics.
There are very few dogs with Schutzhund titles and/or (close up) SchH titled dogs in their pedigrees being selected for service. Most now come from other "sports". And most aren't German Shepherd Dog breed.
Kyle wrote:
"Breeding for points will not strengthen the working ability of the GSD anymore than a VA title."
Okay. Then what constitutes a strong hold and bark, if not high point value? You mention nerve. Do you think the second dog shows strong nerve in the first few second of his barking?
Kyle wrote:
"I posted what I felt were 2 strong examples of a SB. If you are not sure of how to bring these traits out in a dog may I suggest you search video of Bernhard Flinks, Gerald Groos, Mike Diehl, Horst Dieter Tragar and of course Koos Hassing. All of these gentlemen are police K9 trainers/handlers and very accomplished schutzhund trainers/ handlers."
What was the point of this paragraph, other than to name drop? I would hazard to say that anyone of these gentlemen would tell you that desirable traits are desirable in part because they are innate rather than necessitating "bringing out".
So then what value does a highly shaped behavior bring to a sport other than to highlight the trainer's ability?
"Here, you are referring to the "Sport" of schutzhund. Not, what I reffer to as the "training system" of schutzhund. The "Sport" has an end with the outcome being points and a picture."
There is no differentiation on the ahnentafel as to how the animal is trained. He attains the title or not-either through the "sport" method of schutzhund or the "training system" method. It reads the same on the paper.
Kyle wrote:
"The "training system" is the evealuation of the dog (the beginning) to see if it has what it takes to move on to security, police K9, SWAT K9, military K9 etc. During this evaluation the dog is tied out and challenged, without equipmnt. The dog is exposed to different surfaces, stairs, indoors, grips under a truck. These are evaluations of nerve. Just because modern trainers have changed their techniques to suit performance evaluations, does not mean the original purpose was false."
I thought we were discussing the viability of the hold and bark exercize as a means to evaluate, not slippery floors et al, none of which are part of the SchH test, and none of which SchH prepares the dog for, either through conditioning or genetics.
There are very few dogs with Schutzhund titles and/or (close up) SchH titled dogs in their pedigrees being selected for service. Most now come from other "sports". And most aren't German Shepherd Dog breed.
Kyle wrote:
"Breeding for points will not strengthen the working ability of the GSD anymore than a VA title."
Okay. Then what constitutes a strong hold and bark, if not high point value? You mention nerve. Do you think the second dog shows strong nerve in the first few second of his barking?
Kyle wrote:
"I posted what I felt were 2 strong examples of a SB. If you are not sure of how to bring these traits out in a dog may I suggest you search video of Bernhard Flinks, Gerald Groos, Mike Diehl, Horst Dieter Tragar and of course Koos Hassing. All of these gentlemen are police K9 trainers/handlers and very accomplished schutzhund trainers/ handlers."
What was the point of this paragraph, other than to name drop? I would hazard to say that anyone of these gentlemen would tell you that desirable traits are desirable in part because they are innate rather than necessitating "bringing out".
So then what value does a highly shaped behavior bring to a sport other than to highlight the trainer's ability?
by sueincc on 12 September 2010 - 19:09
Hi Kyle: I guess we will have to agree to disagree....except I think you and I are maybe saying close to the same thing!!!!!!!!!!
When I see a very strong, serious dog (not a prey only monster), who can also handle the pressure and screwing down it takes to consistently make high points at big trials, I know that is one hell of a special dog, and THAT'S the best dog to me.
We have all seen dogs who are strong in the beginning but can't handle that kind of pressure in the long run. To me, this is part of the weeding out process on the road to the very best dogs. They may be good dogs, but not great dogs. I am not talking about dogs who had the potential to be great on the trial field but suffered such protracted bad training along the way they were ruined. Unfortunately that happens all too often, (but is not the same).
You cannot take a dog with little or no prey drive and go to the top, nor should you be able to. Prey drive is just as important as defense work. For me a little bit of a problem is schutzhund it does not do as good a job exposing the dogs who have very little or no defense, because a host of things can be masked by high prey! But this is not the fault of the sport, and the reality is most people do want a dog who has high prey drive and high defense drive. This is the ultimate dog, the dog we are all looking for in our heart of hearts, regardless of whether you are in the sport because you like the sport or as a serious breeder.
Also I agree with you that there are a host of things the points don't tell you, which is why I would never be so stupid to say "that must be a great dog, he got 300 points". I would have to see the dogs work first.
When I see a very strong, serious dog (not a prey only monster), who can also handle the pressure and screwing down it takes to consistently make high points at big trials, I know that is one hell of a special dog, and THAT'S the best dog to me.
We have all seen dogs who are strong in the beginning but can't handle that kind of pressure in the long run. To me, this is part of the weeding out process on the road to the very best dogs. They may be good dogs, but not great dogs. I am not talking about dogs who had the potential to be great on the trial field but suffered such protracted bad training along the way they were ruined. Unfortunately that happens all too often, (but is not the same).
You cannot take a dog with little or no prey drive and go to the top, nor should you be able to. Prey drive is just as important as defense work. For me a little bit of a problem is schutzhund it does not do as good a job exposing the dogs who have very little or no defense, because a host of things can be masked by high prey! But this is not the fault of the sport, and the reality is most people do want a dog who has high prey drive and high defense drive. This is the ultimate dog, the dog we are all looking for in our heart of hearts, regardless of whether you are in the sport because you like the sport or as a serious breeder.
Also I agree with you that there are a host of things the points don't tell you, which is why I would never be so stupid to say "that must be a great dog, he got 300 points". I would have to see the dogs work first.
by KYLE on 12 September 2010 - 21:09
Stephanie J,
"There is no differentiation on the ahnentafel as to how the animal is trained. He attains the title or not-either through the "sport" method of schutzhund or the "training system" method. It reads the same on the paper."
And this is the problem. So are you saying all Sch 3 dogs are the same? If so then there is no need to continue this dialogue. The ahnentafel also notes TSB. But we all know dogs with TSB that should not have earned it.
I thought we were discussing the viability of the hold and bark exercize as a means to evaluate, not slippery floors et al, none of which are part of the SchH test, and none of which SchH prepares the dog for, either through conditioning or genetics.
There are very few dogs with Schutzhund titles and/or (close up) SchH titled dogs in their pedigrees being selected for service. Most now come from other "sports". And most aren't German Shepherd Dog breed.
Pardon me for expanding the topic beyond the SB. I gave examples of evaluation of the system of training for further evaluation. The sch titled GSD is not being selected for service because of the lack of consistant temperment for the work. Which one could form the hypothesis that something has gone wrong in the selection for breeding process = schutzhund {a+b+c (......,sb,........) }. But for whatever reason this does not bother those in charge.
Okay. Then what constitutes a strong hold and bark, if not high point value? You mention nerve. Do you think the second dog shows strong nerve in the first few second of his barking?
I like this dogs willingness and vigor to engage. His momentum into the blind actually carried him past the target. I counted 4 to 5 seconds(of nonsense noise) for him to settle into a controlled rhythmic bark. I saw nothing that noted weak nerves or an inability to engage.
What was the point of this paragraph, other than to name drop? I would hazard to say that anyone of these gentlemen would tell you that desirable traits are desirable in part because they are innate rather than necessitating "bringing out".
So then what value does a highly shaped behavior bring to a sport other than to highlight the trainer's ability?
Name drop, please. I'm not their agents nor am I part of any of their social or training circles. Frankly, its rediculous that I even need to explain this point. These are gentlemen in my opinion that GET IT. They use the GSD for higher purpose other than the sport of schutzhund. Many others do as well, I just don't know their names.
So I have gathered from all of this that the SB in of itself cannot tell you anything about a dog? Perhaps an example of what you think a strong SB is necessary.
Kyle
"There is no differentiation on the ahnentafel as to how the animal is trained. He attains the title or not-either through the "sport" method of schutzhund or the "training system" method. It reads the same on the paper."
And this is the problem. So are you saying all Sch 3 dogs are the same? If so then there is no need to continue this dialogue. The ahnentafel also notes TSB. But we all know dogs with TSB that should not have earned it.
I thought we were discussing the viability of the hold and bark exercize as a means to evaluate, not slippery floors et al, none of which are part of the SchH test, and none of which SchH prepares the dog for, either through conditioning or genetics.
There are very few dogs with Schutzhund titles and/or (close up) SchH titled dogs in their pedigrees being selected for service. Most now come from other "sports". And most aren't German Shepherd Dog breed.
Pardon me for expanding the topic beyond the SB. I gave examples of evaluation of the system of training for further evaluation. The sch titled GSD is not being selected for service because of the lack of consistant temperment for the work. Which one could form the hypothesis that something has gone wrong in the selection for breeding process = schutzhund {a+b+c (......,sb,........) }. But for whatever reason this does not bother those in charge.
Okay. Then what constitutes a strong hold and bark, if not high point value? You mention nerve. Do you think the second dog shows strong nerve in the first few second of his barking?
I like this dogs willingness and vigor to engage. His momentum into the blind actually carried him past the target. I counted 4 to 5 seconds(of nonsense noise) for him to settle into a controlled rhythmic bark. I saw nothing that noted weak nerves or an inability to engage.
What was the point of this paragraph, other than to name drop? I would hazard to say that anyone of these gentlemen would tell you that desirable traits are desirable in part because they are innate rather than necessitating "bringing out".
So then what value does a highly shaped behavior bring to a sport other than to highlight the trainer's ability?
Name drop, please. I'm not their agents nor am I part of any of their social or training circles. Frankly, its rediculous that I even need to explain this point. These are gentlemen in my opinion that GET IT. They use the GSD for higher purpose other than the sport of schutzhund. Many others do as well, I just don't know their names.
So I have gathered from all of this that the SB in of itself cannot tell you anything about a dog? Perhaps an example of what you think a strong SB is necessary.
Kyle
by StephanieJ on 12 September 2010 - 22:09
Kyle wrote:
"one could form the hypothesis that something has gone wrong in the selection for breeding process = schutzhund {a+b+c (......,sb,........) }."
Yes. I would take this further and hypothesize that if there are still strong dogs and bloodlines
it is despite a corrupt system, despite what SchH has devolved to, and despite inferences that exercizes that require massive shaping are a good barometer of character.
WHY do YOU believe the soul of the dog is seen through the hold and bark? Because Herr Hassing said so? BTW, do you have a link to the quote. I would like to read this in context. I am thinking he did not mean what you are gleaning.
Here's a strong hold and bark for you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTN5kTkdvME
"one could form the hypothesis that something has gone wrong in the selection for breeding process = schutzhund {a+b+c (......,sb,........) }."
Yes. I would take this further and hypothesize that if there are still strong dogs and bloodlines
it is despite a corrupt system, despite what SchH has devolved to, and despite inferences that exercizes that require massive shaping are a good barometer of character.
WHY do YOU believe the soul of the dog is seen through the hold and bark? Because Herr Hassing said so? BTW, do you have a link to the quote. I would like to read this in context. I am thinking he did not mean what you are gleaning.
Here's a strong hold and bark for you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTN5kTkdvME
by KYLE on 12 September 2010 - 23:09
By all means you should read the article I read. Why take anyones word.
part2 Quote in question
http://www.prlog.org/10507462-word-from-mr-koos-hassing-tiekerhook-german-shepherd-kennel-holland-part-two.html
part 1
http://www.prlog.org/10507451-word-from-mr-koos-hassing-tiekerhook-german-shepherd-kennel-holland-part-one.pdf
part 3
http://www.prlog.org/10507472-word-from-mr-koos-hassing-tiekerhook-german-shepherd-kennel-holland-part-three.pdf
Thanks for that example of a SB.
Kyle
part2 Quote in question
http://www.prlog.org/10507462-word-from-mr-koos-hassing-tiekerhook-german-shepherd-kennel-holland-part-two.html
part 1
http://www.prlog.org/10507451-word-from-mr-koos-hassing-tiekerhook-german-shepherd-kennel-holland-part-one.pdf
part 3
http://www.prlog.org/10507472-word-from-mr-koos-hassing-tiekerhook-german-shepherd-kennel-holland-part-three.pdf
Thanks for that example of a SB.
Kyle
by sueincc on 13 September 2010 - 00:09
Hi Stephanie: You have made a number statements I agree with, you have also made some intriguing and provocative statements I disagree with. I would like to talk about your following statement:
"There are very few dogs with Schutzhund titles and/or (close up) SchH titled dogs in their pedigrees being selected for service. Most now come from other "sports". And most aren't German Shepherd Dog breed."
If you are speaking about police and/or military service, I have to question the validity of your statement. While I by no means am around a lot of police trainers in my country (USA), I do sometimes happen to train with a few, but like everyone else, I have a lot more contact with police as well as military trainers on the Internet. The good old information highway!
When you look at the pedigrees of the dogs owned by those officers in fact most do have schutzhund titles close up and uninterrupted from their parents to many generations back. In fact I rarely see titles from any other sport. I don't think the reason is because those grip sports are no good, every sport has it's negatives and positives.
Just recently on another board the subject came up of why are there are more Malinois than GSDs in police work these days? Pretty much to a man, the training officers and K9 officers all responded that one breed isn't better than the other, a good GSD and a good Malinois were equally desired. They did give the following reasons for the declining numbers of GSD in police units:
GSDs take way too long to mature
The breed (as a whole) is not as healthy overall
GSD is much more expensive
These are all very valid reasons and the health issue surely must be addressed, but none of these reasons has anything to do with schutzhund.
One last thing, Mr. Murphy (the dog in the video clip you linked) was never titled in schutzhund, but he sure was fun to watch, wasn't he? Gotta love the Jack Russel TERRORS!!!! He was the embodiment of true terrior nature, aggressive and full of fight. Did you know there is a picture of him in the Smithsonian Museum?
"There are very few dogs with Schutzhund titles and/or (close up) SchH titled dogs in their pedigrees being selected for service. Most now come from other "sports". And most aren't German Shepherd Dog breed."
If you are speaking about police and/or military service, I have to question the validity of your statement. While I by no means am around a lot of police trainers in my country (USA), I do sometimes happen to train with a few, but like everyone else, I have a lot more contact with police as well as military trainers on the Internet. The good old information highway!
When you look at the pedigrees of the dogs owned by those officers in fact most do have schutzhund titles close up and uninterrupted from their parents to many generations back. In fact I rarely see titles from any other sport. I don't think the reason is because those grip sports are no good, every sport has it's negatives and positives.
Just recently on another board the subject came up of why are there are more Malinois than GSDs in police work these days? Pretty much to a man, the training officers and K9 officers all responded that one breed isn't better than the other, a good GSD and a good Malinois were equally desired. They did give the following reasons for the declining numbers of GSD in police units:
GSDs take way too long to mature
The breed (as a whole) is not as healthy overall
GSD is much more expensive
These are all very valid reasons and the health issue surely must be addressed, but none of these reasons has anything to do with schutzhund.
One last thing, Mr. Murphy (the dog in the video clip you linked) was never titled in schutzhund, but he sure was fun to watch, wasn't he? Gotta love the Jack Russel TERRORS!!!! He was the embodiment of true terrior nature, aggressive and full of fight. Did you know there is a picture of him in the Smithsonian Museum?
by PowerHaus on 13 September 2010 - 03:09
This is a very strong "sit and bark"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNA1rBv1buI
Vickie
www.PowerHausKennels.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNA1rBv1buI
Vickie
www.PowerHausKennels.com
by Jyl on 13 September 2010 - 07:09
I like this male...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qoBSjG7J-c&NR=1
www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qoBSjG7J-c&NR=1
by judron55 on 13 September 2010 - 11:09
well...I'm kind of prejudice because I just imported my Lena daughter.....I was looking at a number of litters from Leon/Lary and found this pup available. I wasn't impressed with the females they were being bred to....The video of Lena had a lot do do with my selection. I look for strong females coming from strong females. I think Lena is a strong female....
You know...some dogs jump and you can't stop them....some dogs are vocal...others..well not so much...they have put too much emphasis on the length of the bark IMNSHO!
You know...some dogs jump and you can't stop them....some dogs are vocal...others..well not so much...they have put too much emphasis on the length of the bark IMNSHO!
by StephanieJ on 13 September 2010 - 14:09
Dear Kyle,
Are you getting pissy with me because I requested you post a referencing link?
So now I must learn you the courtesies of internet debate as well as the fallacy of emphasis on the hold and bark?
Herr Hassing per the interview: “During the hold and bark in the blind you can see and hear the soul of the dog!!"
His very next sentence: " But as a judge one has to be ABLE to see it.” Reference to what he says later in the article about the technicality of advanced training methods impacting what is being valued in a dog and ultimately selected for.
Here's some fancy stuff. What do you think about this hold and bark?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdgqcB2ViUI
@Sue-Brokers with large contracts do not/can not fill them with GSDs, for reasons you and Kyle have mentioned.
Schutzhund is most certainly to blame for this, as it is the working title most often used to satisfy the working criteria for the survey. The exercizes do not practically prepare the dog for service work nor do they correlate to any valuable physical, temperamental, or health traits.
Are you getting pissy with me because I requested you post a referencing link?
So now I must learn you the courtesies of internet debate as well as the fallacy of emphasis on the hold and bark?
Herr Hassing per the interview: “During the hold and bark in the blind you can see and hear the soul of the dog!!"
His very next sentence: " But as a judge one has to be ABLE to see it.” Reference to what he says later in the article about the technicality of advanced training methods impacting what is being valued in a dog and ultimately selected for.
Here's some fancy stuff. What do you think about this hold and bark?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdgqcB2ViUI
@Sue-Brokers with large contracts do not/can not fill them with GSDs, for reasons you and Kyle have mentioned.
Schutzhund is most certainly to blame for this, as it is the working title most often used to satisfy the working criteria for the survey. The exercizes do not practically prepare the dog for service work nor do they correlate to any valuable physical, temperamental, or health traits.
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