Herding lines? - Page 2

My dog Brix v Eichenluft HGH got his herding (HGH) title last year under the training and handling of Ulf Kintzel.  Brix is not "herding lines" but he did extremely well and  learned quickly, had the right instincts and trainability, character to get his title with a V score and high praise from the judge.

I believe other lines I own (not specifically herding lines) would also do very well in herding.  Others, not so much. 

molly
Eichenluft
http://workinggermanshepherd.com

Molly, if someone wanted to work towards a herding title, would you recommend contacting Ulf?  Is there anywhere else (eastern U.S.) you know of where one could train?  Thanks.

I highly recommend contacting Ulf, though he only trains for HGH - tending herding with large flock.  He doesn't do the "border collie" or AKC style herding.  So if you are interested in tending-style herding, contact him.  Or, there is a new HGH club in NJ, not sure of the contact info but could find out.

molly

heres my female doing her HIC this was her first time seeing sheep.....

now this is a good herding shep and she is a show line.....

i like to get her HGH and i am on ULF waiting list...

he only takes one a year in for training...

i have to wait till 2011.....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMNjkjDyQPw

There are other organizations that trial for large flock tending besides HGH, and probably more accessible.  For AKC, there is the "C Course" and for AHBA, there is the "Ranch Large Flock" (RLF).  Descriptions of these and further information can be found on the following link.  Just because the HGH is German, doesn't make it a superior test.

http://www.herdingontheweb.com/programs.htm

It's correct, in that you don't need to seek out specific "herding lines" to find a dog with proper herding instinct.  But, generally speaking, there are particular types of dogs that would be better avoided for a tending novice.  For example, one of my best all-round dogs would not happen to be my preferred choice in this pursuit.  In my experience, a high drive dog is very good for the work, but can become difficult to moderate it's effect on the livestock if it tends to skip a gear between "neutral" and "high".  Love it in protection work, not so ideal for tending.  Perhaps this type of german shepherd is more suited for herding than tending, as you'll also find that the herding world is predominated by the border collie enthusiasts and the style of herding that lends best to that breed's natural drives and instincts.  BC's are very swift and very prompt and deliberately precise in their actions.  Tending, on the other hand, is something the BC's can't quite grasp effectively, and something that some GSD's are very good at.

There's certainly a lot more to look at than simply "drive" when selecting a herding or tending prospect, but it should be recommend that anyone at least observe a training session or two in advance to making a decision to purchase a dog for that venue.  Merely listing all the most desireable characteristics, and then going to see what it's all about after you acquire the dog, is not very good planning IMO.

AKC "C" course is large flock tending?  How large a flock do you consider large?  The minimum # for HGH is 250-300 head.  I don't think there is much comparison to be made.  But if one of the two HGH clubs isn't accessible, then "C" course would be the next choice I guess, and yes more available.

molly

I could carry an intelligent conversation with you about what's more difficult or easier with a flock of 50 and what's more difficult or easier than a flock of 200, but it's pointless unless you have a foundation of experience understand the correlations that would be made.  Just suffice to say "bigger isn't better", any more than a GSD is "best in all things".

The AKC C course requires a 20 minimum, but I'm guessing 50 is about average.  The AHBA RLF ranges from about 30 to 60.  Each are designed to simulate the same drives and instincs of work that would be required for tending 400 or even a 1000 head of livestock.

It could even depend on the dog itself, as to what difference there may seem between a larger or smaller flock.  For a minor example; the longer stays required of a large flock as they move through the bridge could be hard for some dogs.  With a smaller flock, dog with too much oppressive pressure on the livestock when crossing over might be required to allow a much wider berth.

But remember, they are sheep, after all.  Not like a couple hundred independant minds that the dog has to contend with.  It's more about playing with a delicate balance of pressure sensitive bubbles, and directing momentum.  Your dog is going to be more effective, when it operates more like a Jedi Warrior than a Roman gladiator.

I think 300 head of sheep in an open field with no fences is more difficult (and the HGH title far more impressive to me) than 20-60 head in an enclosed area where the sheep are trained.  But, not having HGH club or trainer accessible to me, I am working my dog in akc-style "herding" training, and having great fun doing it.  He enjoys it too.  Not for any titles, because after accomplishing HGH on 350 head, what more could he prove?  LOL  but it is fun for him and great for me to get out and do something different with my dog.  And akc or other herding venues are far more accessible in this country than HGH.

molly

 "Or, there is a new HGH club in NJ, not sure of the contact info but could find out."

Yes, if you could, please.  Maybe I could check them out.  I'm interested in the HGH training, and looks like Ulf has a waiting list.

I do not know them at all, but this club has quite a few HGH titles (and Ulf's dogs).....

http://www.upperbucksschutzhundclub.com/Members.htm

There is a Yahoo Group, focused on tending style herding. They may help you. I know there is a very nice lady with a flock in Massachusetts.

In my (limited experience) opinion, HGH and AKC C course are like the difference between getting a BH and a CD. Similar technical skills but very different venues and exhibitions of those skills.

--Mary