What's the right follow up on my part? - Page 2

I'm a Massachusetts attorney who specializes in civil litigation. I have some thoughts on this matter. Check your email.

Forgive me for saying so, but $1850US including freight and crate is not top dollar for a young adult, and most certainly not an indicator of a quality dog. You pay more for a good puppy. Shipping within the US alone for an adult male will be a minimum of $330US, depending on the routing and what airline used, and can be in excess of $600US for an adult male. That does not include the cost of crate. So you paid less then the price of an average puppy, and it included a pretty expensive shipping bill. In addition to that a GSD of any age weighing in at 102 lbs is not within standard. Let me guess, you asked for a big one... and you were told what you wanted to hear. The standard stops at 88lbs for males and people should pay attention to that and not wish for something that is just not part of the breed. That is no excuse for the condition the dog arrived in. If it was as bad as described. A few scabs are not the end of the world. People on this board have reported problems with flies bothering their dogs ears this summer. Depends on the location, sometimes it just cannot be avoided I guess. The weight issue... dogs will always loose some weight during shipping. Dehydration during shipping can give the dog that emaciated look. It can take up to 10 days for the dog to rehydrate properly. Many people in the sport like to keep their dogs very lean. For the average pet owner (and many vets that see mostly overfed pets) that may be too lean for their taste. 76lbs for a young adult of normal height is nothing out of the ordinary. No idea how tall he is. If he is an average size male, then within 2 weeks he should have gained about 3-5 lbs that he would have lost during the flight. He is a young dog still and will fill out more. He may look a bit lanky now, by the time he is 3, if he has the size and the frame as you describe he will probably be about 85lbs, lean. Price should have been an indicator that you are not getting a top dog. If you want to feed and care for a GSD well it will cost you at least $50 a month. So a dog that is a year and 8 months has already cost at least $900US (not counting the first 2 months), providing there were no major vet bills other than puppy shots and first anual booster at about 15 months. And that is a very tight calculation. Any dog over a year should also have been a-stamped, but at least prescreened for hips and elbows. If that is not done, again an indicator of lack of quality. We never ship any dog over 6 months without x-rays for example. If you add it all up, just the cost of keeping this dog for this length of time was more than his price. And that does not even include the price of the dog as a puppy yet. It is unfortunately the typical story of "you got what you paid for..." Re the dogs condition: Most of the problems you describe seem to be more superficial and it sounds like the dog will be in good shape in no time. Try Australian Tea Tree Oil on the scabby areas, a small area first to make sure there is no allergic reaction. If the dog is ok with it it should speed up healing asap. Deworm at least 3 times 2 weeks apart to make sure he is not "lean" because his food is feeding parasites. Feed a good food, like www.eaglepack.com - Original Adult should work well for this boy. Do not overfeed, put the weight on slowly and keep him lean. You should always be able to feel the ribs easily upon light pressure, and he should have a waist, then he is in good shape. For urinary tract infection (dogs can get them during a flight) give Cranberry supplements. They do work. If you got money back already, papers should follow too. Stay polite when talking to her til you have everything you need. Sorry to hear about your problems. But bottom line still is: Quality care and quality dogs will have their price if you want to get something good. An adult at that price was pretty much a sign of not being all that.

You already know the person is dishonest based on your own experience. Words of denial for the scabs are almost believeable, but what blows credibility is the discrepancy about the dog's weight. 30 pounds is a BIG gap. Any breeder with more than a few dogs and a couple of years experience can guess their dog's weight to the nearest 5 pounds...EASILY. So...your question, what next? Contact the breeder and let her know you want vet bills reimbursed. Contact her local humane society and report your concerns. Contact AKC and let them know about the condition the dog was shipped, as well as the airline she shipped on. The vet who issued the health certificate for flight should also be consulted. Perhaps a different dog was brought in to pose as the dog being shipped (reason for difference in weight?). Finally, each State has a State Veterination, put this experience on record. If this is the condition of her other dogs as well, this will catch up with her. If you're reading this and you are the breeder/seller of this dog, consider a $15 bottle of flea spray to get the flies away from your dogs. Enjoy your dog...he's likely so greatful to have good food, love and care, he'll be a forever friend. Hug the beast for us!

Sue-Ann, a vet issues a health certificate on general condition and that the dog has no apparent signs of disease, especially infectious disease. A few scabs will not stop a vet from issuing a health cert. The weight thing is a joke. That was the sales pitch (he wants a big dog...). A good bath, some good food, proper worming and just some good care and I imagine this boy will look great in no time. Sounds like he is already much loved. But I can imagine the shock when you expect a big guy of a dog and out comes a skinny fellow with nearly 30lbs less. I'll take that experience on my scale any day though, lol.

DH. I mention contacting the vet who issued the health certificate because I wonder if a different dog posed as the one being sold in order to issue health cert. I become suspicious of this when I hear the descrepenacy with the weight. "The vet who issued the health certificate for flight should also be consulted. Perhaps a different dog was brought in to pose as the dog being shipped (reason for difference in weight?)." I'm not sure of laws in other states, but in my state a health certificate is denied if the dog shows signs of internal or external parasite or shows signs of communicable disease. Anything that can effect the dog's health is noted on the health certificate (heart murmur, undescended testicle, etc). So in my state, this dog could not get a health certificate based on his coat condition...although that wasn't my initial thought. If it were me I would want a conversation with the last person (with a medical opinion) to see the dog while in the former owner's care. I agree with you completely that the price for this dog was cheap. In some cases one does get what they pay for.

Dear D.H. OH, how wrong you are. While I certainly appreciate your input, and many times knowledge of certain things, I have noticed a tendency on your part to talk down to people, to make unwarrented assumptions, and to treat everyone as if the first time they ever saw a GSD was yesterday. 1. Weight was not even discussed in the beginning. I happened to ask in an email in the middle of the transaction and was told he weighed 102 lbs. I was a little concerned frankly. 18 months. 2. The price. I would not complain that that price was too high for a dog in good condition. There are many excellent breeders that will sell you a quality pup for $1000 to $1500 plus shipping. 3. Why this dog. I have been in the GSD community since 1971. My wife has been with them since she was born. We have owned Amer. show dogs and working dogs, and german schutzhund dogs. I have been a handler in my schutzhund club. I have trained our dogs, some to Utility degree, some to Sch1. All this while raising 2 daughters alongside the dogs. I decided to retire early and moved to a new small city. My wife and I after talking it over decided that we wanted another GSD. I started looking for a pup. Then I ran across this dog. The breeder advertised this as a special situuation. I don't want to say too much at this point that would easily identify her, but she said she couldn't keep the dog. We decided after seeing a picture that we had seen something in his face that said adopt me. Stupid huh? Anyway we were not after a dog that would earn national titles. We thought a dog that can achieve a sch1 if I can find a club within driving distance, or if not, just a good companion that was well trained. 4. The complaints. Would you not tell a prospective buyer that a dog you are selling has scabs on his cheek, an old bite or wound on his head that is hairless and that the tips of his ears are hard and scabbed over for 3/4 of an inch? Would you leave your dog outside where the insects can get to them and not do anything about it? Would you tell a buyer that you were confused by your vet as to the weight of the dog(a 30 lb. difference)? Would you tell your buyer a certain price for the dog and then when the buyer receives the dog with the shipping charges on the crate and there is an unexplained discrepancy and questions you, would you say I added gas to the airport, the vet bill, the paypal charges and extra on shipping because the vet confused me about the weight. Would you have stated in the beginning that it was your intention to add these charges to the price of the dog? Would you have sent the AKC papers promptly as you stated you would, or would the buyer still be waiting two weeks later? Would you call all of these things a dog in good condition? You would call this "getting what you paid for"?! I don't want my money back because that would mean sending him back to an awful situation. I would rather take the losses, keep him and enjoy him. Finally, the red flags. Were there any? Yes, absolutely. You are right about that. Were we stupid? Well, maybe not stupid but trusting. Is that a bad thing? I guess these days it is. In my 35 years expirience I had never had a bad experience with a breeder, and there were many. I guess I got lulled into a false sense of security. But I have noticed a growing sense of acceptance by the GSD community to this caveat emptor mentality. MUCH more than was necessary in the past. It's a shame. Look at you, an ordinarily intelligent conscientious person making excuses for this breeder and assuming that I as the buyer asked for a big dog outside the standard and got what I deserved.

OldNewGuy, Sadly, your story is becoming all to familar on this board and others I read. It took me 6 months to get the AKC papers for my first GSD, the name was partially completed when they finally arrived and I never did see a contract although this breeder is an AKC judge, past officer of the GSDCA and a signer of their breeders code. So much for that meaning anything. My current GSD was purchased from a breeder who also advertises on this board, world class GSD's. I was quoted $750 for a pet male. When we arrived at the kennel to see the sire and dam, we made the mistake of arriving in our RV. The price then increased to $1,000 (after I handed over my deposit). When I said -your husband quoted me $750, all I got was a head shake and "No, it's $1,000 for a pet, he was wrong". When I asked why the pregnant dam had toenails so long they were interfering with her walking, I was told she never cuts toenails on a pg female due to the risk of infection. I worked as a vet tech for a long time and owned and bred another working breed for 27 years, this was not my first rodeo. the conditions of the kennel were less than sanitary and I'll just let it go at that. Still, I bought the dog, the parents had wonderful dispositions, had good hips, and appeared to be sound. These were my criteria for a pet. Sure, maybe we both should have walked away from all of these deals, but, as you have said, we all want to trust others often much to our regret when the dust has cleared. I don't know why, but it seems that some prefer to put a spin on a bad deal turning it around to make it look as if you, the buyer, just fell off the turnip truck and got exactly what you deserved.

I feel D.H. was trying to give some information that may help to understand what may have happened. I don't see finger pointing just some helping info. I really think it is ok to come here and say, I had a good experience or bad. When you are asking for an opinion it opens the can of worms if it isnt what you want to hear. It does help to see the people who have had good experience with a particular breeder, but how many actually report this? No, most of the time it is the complaints. Then there is the good info you have to weed through that makes it all worth while. The complains help too because it brings out the issues that can happen.

Very well said ONGMC. Isn't it strange how being trusting gets you backlash and the crappy business people get justified? I have witnessed this and am dissapointed in people for reacting in this way.

OldNewGuyMC I am sorry to hear about your boy coming in that way. Do you have a contract? stating the conditions about health? they can read diferently. I have a female for sale, young pup and she has a couple bite marks on the head. I would not dare send her like this without first treating her. My name goes on this dog and shows the world what I am producing Maybe it just me (reguardless if it is a couple scrapes). As far as the wieght goes AH most people can not tell the correct wieght (unless you have been doing it for a while) they think oh he is big must be 100 lbs. and only turns out to be 80. The oldest trick in the book, we see it all the time BIG BONE GERMAN SHEPHERDS, HUGE, 100 lbs Monster, heads as big as basketball. (turns out to be 88 lbs with medium bone and a bitch head) I agree with contacting the vet, the vet check should state "something" about the face if it was missing hair and smelled. I would also ask if "her dogs" normally look like that when shipping? I am surprised that she did not treat the ears (please don't make excuses for breeders that allow flies to eat up the dogs ears! that is sad) it shows that she does not care or too lazy to treat the animals. Price does not always tell if it is a good dog all the time. I have placed many great dogs with people at a fair price. Why cause I LOVE what I do not because of the money. It means more to me that my dog is in a great home vs getting full price. These people are great homes and really love thier dogs and treat them better then most people who do pay full price. I have less problems out of them and they seem to stay in touch more. Yes there are kennels the wash thier bad dogs out at a lower price and one does have to do thier homework. But not all breeders are like that. There are some (getting harder and harder to find nowdays) that still are in it for the love of the breed and not the money and thier dog truelly represents thier kennel (not words on a web site)