straight backed, more to original line shepherd br

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by LaPorte on 16 August 2006 - 05:08

Funny, but on occasion I see at some SV style conformation shows in the USA, showline dogs that are straighter in the back. They do not place well, as they look "outdated" compared to today's popular types in the ring. If you study past Seigers and dogs that placed well say 20, even 25 or so years ago - they look similar to that. Take a time machine and these dogs would be placing well and the ones today would be considered the odd ones out. I believe this dog you are describing is being produced today, but is frowned on by show breeders as being somewhat 'ugly' and frowned on by working breeders as being 'show' - so these dogs just don't get much notice. The question in my mind is this: are the breeders of these dogs breeding for this look, or do they just have less popular breeding stock for some reason, and this is what pops out?? Can't say. My opinion anyway, for what it's worth. By the way, I hate roach backs and I don't think male GSDs should ever look "pretty".

by Shepherdess2 on 16 August 2006 - 23:08

Preston, That was the most an excellent piece of scientific/historical backround, on this subject I have ever discovered! Our vet has questioned me many times as to why my shepherd, like all she sees in the German line have the roach back. She said your piece was fantastic and will pass it on to her collegues as well. Now I well take time to find a dog of this quality. My purpose is strictly to have a Shepherd more like the original line that was created stictly as a companion and pet for me and my Shcutzhund I female. I have had it with competiton phase. It was an experience... Thanks again for the info. ANd also everyone has been so helpful and generous in responding and helping me. This is a nice forum to be in :)!

by GSDBrisko on 17 August 2006 - 02:08

We have 8 GSDs working lines, all are great house dogs... great with children, other pets, etc. Most have their CGCs and some TDIs...

by Preston on 17 August 2006 - 03:08

LaPorte, you are so correct about the great GSDs of about 20-25 years ago. I have an old film from the Sieger Show in W.Germany for 1982 (it was filmed by Ed Frawley). The dogs were absolutely fantastic then. Some had red or orange with black saddles, but the dogs of today have more red. I attended this show and watched Natan Pelztierfarm go Sieger a second time. Structurally he was perfect and his temperament was awesome. I guess he didn't produce as well as hoped, but he himself was awesome. Complete poetry in motion and hard biting yet very outgoing, stable and friendly. I have been told by those in the know that Fanto Hirchel, also a double Sieger was structurally the most perfect GSD that ever existed. I never saw him but I understand he had a perfectly conformed back to the standard, as did Natan. Many of the dogs I saw had much more powerful and balanced movement and better front angles matched to extremely powerful rears with no long lower thighs, and with short hocks. I saw a number of cross-over dogs (highly ranked in profung), most black and tan and black sable that should have placed much higher in my view, causing me to wonder if there was some kind of political penalty or disadvantage for competing in both worlds. It appeared to me that the dogs were more outgoing and robust in temperament, and the males had strong wide male heads, deep chests and short backs and loins. It matters not to me if a good looking, good acting and good moving GSD is from working or show lines. A good dog is just plain good no matter the source and there are a significant number of them out there, many of which do not get the attention or respect they deserve. It's always about the individual animal more than anything else if you are looking for that special dog to own and live in the house with and also about what that animal can produce if used properly. Many of the folks who have these special dogs really don't know what they have because they aren't deeply connected to clubs or politics. Some of the greatest GSDs are bred, sold or owned by small relatively unknown GSD enthusiasts who have no chance to win due to their isolation from the big breeder/judges or breed wardens. Breeding a great GSD that is correct to the standard with a great temperament is always a rarity in show or working lines and when they appear they should be used. It always comes down to one's personal knowlege of the standard and what constitutes correct structure, movement and temperament. This knowledge is available for those who want to acquire it and are committed to keep from developing "kennel blindness" (the self- rationalization that one's faults in their GSDs aren't really there). I saw Sgr. Yasko Farbenspiel in person closeup and he was great in everyway, structure, movement, masculine traits, pigment, etc. I have seen movies of Ursus and he was awesome too. And there have always been great GSDs emerging from the masses here and in W.Germ and other countries.

by marci on 03 April 2008 - 08:04

Which Lines... were used to COMPENSATE on the ROLF blood... What Preston narrated as lines that..." produced the ever increasing arch back..." Are they similar to the ROUND backs ??? common with Rikkor Badboll lines.??? Alf Norfelsen was one that was used to counteract the SAGGING back... Who else was used to correct ROLF Blood.???

by Mindhunt on 03 April 2008 - 11:04

Nice explanation Preston, I never knew that and it explains quite a bit. That's why I like this forum, I am always learning something new from people like you that helps out with my understanding of the breed. Thanks

I don't show my boy, I have done years of K9 training with him, take him for "rides" whenever the weather and what I am doing permits. I recently took him to a show (cheering on my friend with her show shelties) and the judges outside on break fell in love with him, they all commented on how he looks like the "old fashioned" GSDs, one judge was around in the 70s and hadn't seen too many that look like what he remembers. According to a vet friend who has been in GSDs for 50+ years and is the go-to guy for OFAs and analyzing structure, movement, etc, this boy is one of his favorites. Of course I am just so objective when it comes to my boy LOL

P.S. Someday I will get a really good picture of him, I just have to be faster with the camera, he knows when I am taking the picture and always moves

by Sunsilver on 03 April 2008 - 12:04

Nice looking dog! He looks quite a bit like Alf !

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/841.html

by Ranchinglady on 03 April 2008 - 13:04

Excellent reading/resource. Topic "Toplines"

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/bulletins_read/164925.html#164976

by giblaut on 03 April 2008 - 14:04

Working dogs *can* be great house dogs--but it depends on the individual dog and you do have to meet their exercise needs. And to be fair, the show lines need a lot of exercise too--most big dogs do.

As far as getting a straight back, positioning/stacking really does make a huge difference.

The thread Ranchinglady linked has an excellent discussion--I wish all the pictures were still there to be seen!

But here's an example of one of my own young bitches, Blackthorn's Hunter. She's out of the 2x Universal Sieger Alex v Eisenhaus, but she's 100% working lines. What's amazing is that although I really like the way she looks in these pictures... she doesn't really look like the same dog in person.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/512076.html

Blackthorn's Hunter

And another shot (I tweaked the color on this one b/c the flash was on and overexposed it)

Blackthorn's Hunter

And in this one, she is overstacked, but I still liked it best of all the pictures.

Blackthorn's Hunter

by Mindhunt on 03 April 2008 - 17:04

Thanks Sunsilver. Your Alf must be incredibly handsome LOL. Send me a picture, I paint (ok, reality check, I apply acrylics and watercolor to canvas or paper, every so often I get lucky) so I am always looking for good dog pictures to use hmcfireball@comcast.com

Giblaut, beautiful girl, love her looks, she looks like my Loki and she looks like a strong dog. I should teach Loki to stack so I can see how he looks compared to others. Is she what is called a bi-color? I was told my Loki (above picture is overexposed, bottom one is natural sunlight) is boderline bi-color but closer to black and tan. I wish there was a good website that had color pictures of all the different registered colors (hint, hint all you knowledgable people).

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