line breeding - Page 2

Mikerussel yes I agree wth u,showline GSD have very close gene pool n v r trying to expand it .

Here's the main point. You can use outcrossing to attain the same effect genetically for the structural, mental, color, coat traits like you could with a very multiply stacked, close line-breeding by using complete, distant outcrosses. Here's how: breed dogs togther which have the same exact type (almost the exact same appearance for males vs. females in the lines, mental traits, color, and what you desire) that have no common ancestor in the first 5 generations (go higher if possible). This allows you to stack up and pair identical genes (from both sire and dam) for type, while greatly increasing the odds of generating near complete heterozygosity of the health related genes. For example, there are five genes believed to be related to disease resistance and overall health in the dog. If you get homozygosity in three or more, the dog is usually weak and sickly or has serious health problems. If you get two or less, then the dog is heterozygous for these immune genes and you get robustness, vitality and long life. And this is true for many other secondary gene sites as well related to development and health. The overall goal of the smart breeder is to stack up the desired good genes into prominance (dominance)(phenotype and even genotype) and bury the bad genes back into inactive (recessive acting) status.

1)First of all I would like to say that to be successful as a breeder( I mean bredding a quality dog not only procducing puppies)one has to be very very very lucky. 2)Then it depends on individual dogs i.e.Father and mother who are involved and what they throw. To give an example, when a dog becomes a sieger obviously he is a good producer also. Now his brother also has same genes as he has but he doesnt produce as good as his brother or not even close even if he is bred to the same female. So individually dog has to have the potential. 3)The logic behind line or inbreeding is the offsprings we get will be of the similar type as the dog linebred on. But that is not always the case. You can easily see that most of the times the dog linebred on certain dogs not necessarily resemble the those dogs. Otherwise by doing a linebreeding exactly as any other top dog should produce same dog again and again. In that case we will see only repeat breeding. But that is not the case. So to put it short I think breeder needs is 1) Big luck and 2) very very good dogs who can really produce well. Just having the same genes and pedigree doesn't mean any dog can be a Ursus Batu or Uran Wildsteiger land. Thereofore when choosing a stud dog breeder should always have an idea what the dog has produced earlier rest is luck. I have two questions if anyone can answer please, 1) We often see a dog line bred on 4 or 5 dogs. For e.g. Mark Haus Beck and Jeck Noricum. Now both the dogs are totally different physically.( atleast that is seen by the photo). What is the logic behind such linebreeding. 2) Why dogs like Wallace Agrigento and Baru Haus Yu who are excellent producers did not go high in terms of winning. Otherwise Wallace would have been VA purely on his producing ability.

Preston, I think you make some excellent points. I too, believe in outcrossing to bring in the "hybrid vigor." I also look for "type" (working dogs in my case). However, in breeding to type, that robust healthy, strong type had to come from somewhere. Even though I desire to outcross, when I look at pedigrees, I look for what I know to be recognized "strong" dogs in the lineage. Haus Larwin comes to mind. So even though we are not technically "line breeding", we are lining up those strong genes from different pools to hopefully create the great Shepherds of the future. My question is, how many of these strong gene pools are there, a few, hundreds? How many really good strong dogs were produced that most people never heard about, a few, many? Hope this makes sense. Dennis

Hi marlene, rinus is still trying to contact you in every possible way ,left messages, emailed you , told your husband and friends to contact him , can you just give him a time and date and he can phone you, he thinks you dissapeared from this world but someone that do business and sell dogs must be reachable in one way...he really wants to talk to you, so just give him a time and date that you are available... thanks in advance

dcw, you make a very good point. The breeding must have a target of a trait or traits. Breeding to a line for a very strong head (not many out there) while still getting heterozygosity in the health related genes is very desirable. In answering your question on how many strong gene pools are out there, I am giving you an informed view which is not based on actual current scientific research. When one goes back many years in the breed one will find GSDs with the specific individual traits that show today in the heads, proportions, etc. But the genes for these have been selected out and mixed and matched in many combinations. But I believe that when you see a heavy set, great front with true 90 degree angles, you are looking at a specific gene combo that was passed thru Quanto Wienerau, for just one example. So, in a sense you can select out the great traits of the past just by breeding animals which tend to display and produce these desired qualities. Some of the old breed Wardens in West Germany know the secrets of how to get at these traits through smart breeding. These old guys are literally worth their weigh in Gold. For example, a tracer trait I discovered: I have found that if you see the "eagle eye" (fire in the eyes) look in a puppy, it will almost always turn out to be a fantastic tempermented dog in adulthood (if you can survive all the chewing of the first year!).